I think this shows how desperate the opposition is.They keep attacking people and keep avoiding why someone should or shoudn't support a bill.I think comparing ND hunters to PETA shows that clearly. I'm also surprised how fishingbuddy allows itself to be the home of the opposition, and be against freelance hunters. Another reason why I like it here where the future is worth more than a buck.
Just laugh it off and remember that business the next time you're in Devils Lake. But more importantly, stay active and write your legislators this week!
Tony is not in favor of caps in ND and has stated this in earlier posts, however if a balanced and respectful response is sent, I do beleive it will see his board. Tony reads all the mail sent to him.
Remember that others from around the counrty read his web page so state your case with that in mind. Facts and good info will generate a better understanding than taking personel shots at Steve. Tony is his own moderator, and controls what goes on the board.
I do beleive that it should be properly reponded to.
I like Tony but had to laugh at him when he was on Ed's show a few weeks ago. He went on and on about how ND should not cap NR hunters. Someone called up and asked if that meant he thought the SD waterfowl NR caps should be abolished. He side-stepped the question (guess that means he is serious about entering politics!). Someone else called in and pressed him and he finally answered by saying "well I think the SD caps could be a little higher". Guess his opinion on NR caps depends on if he is a R or a NR :lol:
Qwack, I was going to say the same thing! How can he criticize ND for wanting a cap when he's from SD and they have a FAR more restrictive cap compared to anything that's even been proposed thus far in ND? That's as hypocritical a thing to say as if someone in favor of a cap in ND said SD should have no caps. Then again, what else should we expect from DL's poster boy?...Or a guy who hunts strictly from guide services when in ND? Tony Dean is simply a pimp for a lot of guides. I wonder when the last time he came to ND and freelance hunted?
I know you are a smart man and will realize the above comments from Mr. Jones do not even come close to the feelings of most of the people in ND. You are a respected man and an expert in your field. We in ND do appreciate your work and love all the shows you do about our great state. Thanks for your effort on our behalf.
Not everyone enjoys going to a different state and being a freelancer. Ron's point about needing guides is right on. Just because Mr. Dean uses a guide does not make him bad. He just wants to get the best product he can for his productions and thus we can enjoy them that much more when they are broadcast.
Can you blame him though? He probably gets free guiding and lodging for promoting those outfits on his show. If I could make a living hunting and fishing with guides and outfitters in another state, I'd probably do it too. :wink:
Your comments on Tony Dean are way out of line, ripping him is not going to help the cause. You obviously didn't hear the broadcast because Tony didn't really criticize ND for looking at caps, but rather said in the long run it might not be the best option for the future of waterfowling. If you've listened to him at all he's made it clear that he thinks the SD non-resident waterfowl limit is a joke.
When it comes to conservation, wetland protection, and solid hunting ethics, there is no better voice than Tony Dean. He will stand up to anybody when it comes to protecting the resource. Having tunnel vision on limiting non-residents and guides and getting upset about it seems to be so much easier than getting involved in the real issues like projection of wetlands and the Clean Water Authority Restoration Act of 2003.
I basically agree with what you say - I like & respect Tony for those same reasons - But because of his show & position in life - he is in bed with the commercial sides to all this - maily because, he has to be, to give his viewers the fast paced variety & quality of show - he has.
But I also wonder if it isn't t time to tone down the ND is Rightious & untapped paradise for hunters. - It sure is, if the next step is, to just become another Texas or Arkansas or Lousiana - Except those States are heavily populated year round - ND only grows in size, for a few weeks a year.
I really do think letting ND become a Pay to hunt - or Leased out exclusive hunt club - will further diminish & cause ND to lose even more of the brighter - better educated workers in the state, that do not have family connections back to huntable lands. & not just the Youth - I would guess the 20 & 30 somethings are the Biggest group in the Freelance Hunting group - Both Resident & Nonresident. Maybe a little older for Residents cause we are loosing youth & young adults at such a alarming rate.
It is so amazing how Hunters have stood up for Farmers, for the Bills that are so important to them - But yet it has been so hard for them, to learn & see what these Bills mean to us Freelance Hunters. I do believe it is because the commercial sides in all this, have purposely devised a campaign, to use hot buttons & topics to rally Landowners to become defensive.
But if the goal is personal profit from hunting - then were doomed. - But if you look, who is making the Big Money, from this group - not many are struggling Farmers.
If it is to help save their small towns & bring economic opportunity to their communities ??? So someone lives & comes there besides farmers ???Then they need to wake up & do things to promote Freelance hunting in their communities & regions. Because that is where the currant super majority of traveling hunters comes from - the ones buying gas & food & drink & lodging - But even this group can not continue to grow without some good management. - Find ways to spread them out across ND - there are virtually untaped areas in ND to hunt ducks. But the season is so short & even shorter if you are going to just let them all come at the same time & to the same few areas with good services.
I personally love to get away from the areas that are getting too crowded like Devils lake - Rugby - Lakota - Bottineau & eat & buy things in the real rural ND -
& in many ways that is what has happened in the last ten years - Residents have moved away from the heavily tourist / better services areas & areas that are becoming leased up & posted beyond belief (at least to us) - We have always known how, to get access, to posted lands - Not a new thing - Especially the better areas - But to see 20 or 30 trucks or more - out scouting the same areas every night - & seeing it become a competition & race to the birds, is not my idea of Fun. We Residents will lose in that scenerio - cause we will not play that kinda game - while most Non - Residents think it's great, compared to where they come from. Alot of these folks are not hunters - just want to kill / shoot something. For the money they have spent. So when they are successful - many tend to over do it.
I don't think Tony has had to expirence what we residents have the past 10 years - Even though he likes to make everyone feel he is a ND Boy & knows our State, as well as we do - he really doesn't :eyeroll:
Wow my rantings have struck some nerves. Thank you for expanding interest. The more folks who will participate in this discussion and the more we work together the better our future will be. Read the bill in question SB 2048 on the Discover ND website and see what it does, consider how it can be manipulated and what its consequences might be. After doing so please contact our legislators (whether you are a North Dakotan or not) and let them know how you would like them to vote and why. I believe thay are honorable folks who want what is best for all.
Quite a lot of name calling and hoopla has been bandied about with many personal attacks to go around. For any part in that I may have accept my apology. Nonetheless I strongly feel that SB2048 needs to be defeated. It is not a decent solution to our waterfowl situation. The last few years have been excellent in our area due to high water and therefore excellent habitat and production. It never dawned on me that folks would seek to impose participation restrictions in times of plenty, damaging the livelihood of me and my neighbors, and limiting the rights of our fellow Americans. Many residents (including myself) first came to North Dakota as visitng sportsmen. Teddy Roosevelt included. Some of us are making a go of it providing opportunities for many to work and play during the October waterfowl season. Investing to keep our struggling towns alive. I am not "getting rich" or "raping the reasource" in the process. God through his changes in the weather will take these opportunities change soon enough without micromanagement by a grossly flawed formula. Nearly all the customers at my lodge are what some call freelance hunters. They make their own access arrangements, just renting rooms from me, while spending freely in our cafe, bar, churches, groceries and gas purveyor. The little profit I have made from the hunting season is just enough to keep me in the black. I employ several residents, maintain and improve a number of otherwise vacant buildings and struggle to pay taxes. Our customers come because they perceive what we have to offer to be world class hunting opportunities. They plan often more than a year in advance what are often family reunion gatherings and club outings that focus more on comaraderie than shooting birds. I only ask that our slogan be allowed to remain true "Be ye bird watcher or bird hunter, all are welcome here."
Spirit water you have made a choice and as I asked someone else to do please post a sign in your business proclaiming your nonsupport for quality hunting, and then let the chips fall where they may.This should be a great maketing tool. Trust in the same people you keep saying you are fighting for to support you in your business. This information should be provided for your patrons to be informed for them to make a fair decision.
I normally welcome people that move here to start businesses or to buy a business that may be closing or is just for sale. They tend bring with them new and fresh ideas' and have a idea of what it takes to be successful. Most have a business model designed to work with in the confines of it's enviroment. Most would not invest there livielyhood on a voliatle resource subject to the extremes that waterfowl experience. You have just brought the slash and burn mentality of money first and money second, beyond that nothing else matters.< This type of mentality is looked down on in our fine state.
Your attempt to apoligize is falling on a deaf ear in myself for I have read most of the the self serving, me only BS that you have posted on the Web. Most of the people fighting to get the proposed legislation passed are not doing it for themselves but for the next generation of sportsmen.
Your use of Teddy Roosevelt is a insult to his name, this man established the NWR system that protected waterfowl and other endangered wildlife in the early 1900's. His long term vision keep many birds and animals from going extinct. The market shooter would have kept firing until no more waterfowl grace the skys. When I see a mallard circle a field I think of it's struggle and determination to continue what it ancestors had done for generations. You see dollar signs. I watch the fall migration of snow geese sand sandhill cranes, my heart goes into my throat and I try to imagine what it must have been like when only native americans walked these lands. You see dollar signs. This fundamental difference is what seperates us on this issue. I respect the wildlife I pursue and try and impart this to those that I hunt with especially the beginning hunter. Your statement of" in times of plenty" shows a lack of understanding of and a willingness to misinform about waterfowl numbers for monetary gain. All indications show that we are headed for shortend seasons and reduced bag limits, duck numbers are down,some species as much as 50% since the 90's and with the loss of wetland protection no long term indicators of anything but declines. Still you want to sell and sell and sell regardless of the resource. Enron style accounting at its best!
This debate is one of many complex issues that will affect all residents of North Dakota in some manner. The use of misinformation such as what you have spouted demonstrates that your interests lie only with you, as mine lie with what is best for all. I may not be correct on everything and my opinion may not match everyone out there, but I will not profit by trying character bashing. I have re-written this letter many times to curb my disgust and disdain, but go back under the rock you climbed out from under.
p.e.t.a [ people eating tasty animails] member in good standing,
To my fellow viewers please understand my anger and frustration in my last post, I in no way shape or form want my personal views to be read as those of this site or other posters. This is my opinion and mine alone on the above subject.
Steve - I have met you - I have sent many people (NR's) your way (in the past) especially boat hunters & Big water hunters. I have ate in the cafe (when it's open) & bought lots of food / lunch items in your town.
I have admired how you, or your group (Investors) have taken all that old senior housing & old motels & other discarded housing & turned it into a viable business - with Minnewaken Flats as the main draw.
I would bet the vast majority are Freelance hunters - (Those that do not or will not Pay to hunt.) Plus I bet Fishing is a big part of your business ???
I wonder how many of you folks, that make a living off the Lake, would feel if the Native Americans won their Lawsuit claiming the Lake is theirs ??? & you got the word, you were not welcome to use it anymore ??? & you had to pay for access, that has been a given for many years ??? Imagine if they had a monopoly on the Lake - All the better parts were off limits, only to their customers at the Resort ??? For fishing spring - summer - fall & winter too ???
I have watched your area become terrible for Freelance Snow Goose Hunters. Both because they really don't use the area like they used to. & because the few places they do roost are controlled by guides.
How many of your customers really were turned away ??? I bet your pretty well booked during the 1st several weeks of waterfowl season. It was pretty late when we ran out of Licenses. (Imagine if there were lots of great areas, for Freelance hunters to come & use - & you had thousands of people who wanted to come there - every week thru out the entire season) instead of the vast majority all coming the same 2 or 3 weeks
What do you give back to waterfowl ??? & Fishing ???
Imagine if your community were to promote it's self as a ideal desination for the majority of Freelance Hunters ??? & not do so much to anger & alienate Residents ???
Why do you act as though we are not important to your business or future ???
Is it because the guides have also made you & your community think they are whats best for you ???
We understand the land is owned by private owners & we used to be able to make contact & show respect & be able to hunt alot of your area - Not nearly as much anymore - Mainly because you have choose to take sides with the few big $$$ guides in your area. (I bet they own significant amounts of your business too) ??? & have gone the route of doing all they can to make pay to hunt - the future of your town & region.
I truely believe if what you want is not based on personal profit - But were focused on doing whats best for the town (to survive) & prosper - & if You would meet as a chamber of commerce & see that promoting Freelance Hunting & having good management of the resources - based on the amount of huntable lands & accomadations in the area - would be so much more positive - rather than wanting a free for all - attracting folks to the area & then trap them into pay to play.
I bet if you really studied how many use guides - you will find they are 1st timers to ND - most only do it to learn whats up & then come back as freelancers - bring with them more & more & more. When is enough enough ( leased land for guides - for an area ???) Especially when the area is so posted & you have done all you can to make it more difficult for freelancers to find landowners willing to share - Remember you are alienating both residents & Non Resident Freelance Outdoor Sports People - as well as many of the landowners in your area that despise what you are doing - (& many do) I have talked to so many that now just say no to everyone, because they are tired of all the hassles & politics & greed. - But alot of these folks really don't hunt - or really understand what all the problems & concerns are - & most do not realise there is another way to go in all this - that could be positive for the Super Majority of Hunters both Resident & Non-Resident hunters. That could make Minnewaken really special - even see services to the visiting outdoors folks expand & become really a great destination. By working with area / regional landowners to see the potential & do things to get them, to want to help, all enjoy the resources the area has to offer. Instead of a few trying to make it something most despise & hate to see ND become - Sure there has to be BIG Money potential to those few if ND becomes another Texas or Arkansas where everything is leased & pay to play. But the benefits to the majority would be significantly reduced & eventually you will find well over 90 % of the potential visitors won't be able to afford it - or can the weather be controlled & resources maintained (Which are owned & paid for & protected by tax payers & License buyers) How do you think you alone can sustain the quality of ND ??? If only a small percentage of people can & will participate ??? Do you think ND will do all it can & does for Fish & Wildlife if only a few Pay to hunt people are going to benefit ??? - The guides will be the ones helping & paying for Fish & Wildlife - RIGHT :roll: ???
You see we are at a crossroads, on where we are going to go with ND Outdoor expirences - If we lose, or nothing is done - it will continue to erode - where our chance of ever sharing what has been so great, about living in ND, is no longer worth living here for.
& the low paying jobs Commercial hunting & Pay to hunt will create - & will be available to those that remain - sure won't attract a new resurgence of folks, that want to move back to ND to pay expensive fees to be able to be sucessful.
I guess to many of you - the Buffalo Commons theory, is a good potential thing, for those that remain :eyeroll: But without a taxbase & people what kinda quality of life will remain ???
Fetch thanks for putting the feelings of many in the proper perspective, I have seen the demise of hunting evolve gradually , but now it is at a accelerated pace just because of the a few who are interested in their own personal gain. You are correct about NR learning the ropes on the first trip and then free lancing from then on. I would do the same myself and more power to them, most of them are working stiffs like the rest of us and cannot afford what the commercial interests want.. Thanks again
Thanks for the feedback Fetch. You have made a number of "bets." Some you would win. Some you would lose. If you would like to stand behind your words feel free to make me a buy out offer. I support all your possible suggested restrictions EXCEPT absolute limits on the number on the total number of folks allowed to waterfowl here. Why I am still responding to someone who tells me to "climb back under the rock I came from" is perhaps a worthy question. I am a Person Eating Tasty Animals and a Person for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and a Person for the Equal Treatment of all Americans. I have a great deal of respect for the Wildlife Refuge System initiated one hundred years and stand behind my belief that Teddy Roosevelt would be with me in standing up for equal treatment of all Americans.
Addoken and Fetch (moderator???) et al... It is precisely "the working stiffs" who would be damaged the most by SB2048, whether they are from Fargo or Moorhead. An analysis of my customers has been suggested. Less than 2% of my waterfowling guests currently employ guides and make formal pay for access hunts. The rest come from all over the country including North Dakota for the world class hunting opportunities we currently enjoy. All are welcome here. It is precisely such modest income groups of family and friends that don't have the time or means to buy their way in to a few available liscences and can't plan way in advance that are (and were last year already) unable to come on last minute trips because all the available liscences are sold. As for me I will adjust myself to whatever happens. I hope we can celebrate our similarities instead of seeking alienation according to differences. The future of our heritage and freedoms are in the balance.
Spiritwater Steve....How can you be sold out a year in advance but they don't have the forsight to buy that waterfowl license in advance and they couldn't come because they were sold out. If someone has a lodge reservation that far in advance but they want to buy their license at the last minute, I just don't feel too sorry for them. Sorry!! Sounds like poor planning to me, either that or your argument doesn't hold water!
Last year several of my friends that hunt waterfowl were not able to because of the cap system. The reason is they did not find out about it and did not buy a license in advance. Obvisouly in the future they will not make that mistake. But last year was the first year of the caps. So I do not think you can blame people for that.
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