Both these topics are hot. Here's my limited perspective. I personally know of two families who have moved to Sodak (1 from MN and 1 from ND), primarily because of the tremendous duck hunting and lack of competition from guides/outfitters/NRs there. I know of three other families (including my own) and one individual who are planning to relocate/retire in Sodak because of the waterfowl hunting. Is this significant? I don't know. I do know that I personally know of no one who has relocated to ND for the hunting.
Resident Hunting Situation and De-population of ND
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These people relocate to far NE SD where pheasants are relatively rare and WPAs abundent ?
SD is always posted. Always need permission.
While access to some waterfowl hunting is likely very good (NE SD). No state with the exception of Texas has sold out to outfitters and guides more than SD. While pheasant is indeed king - look at many of the internet boards from SD - access remains an issue despite all of the walk-in land now available.
Now you can not even hunt ditch parrots from the road ditch - not that I care to. Just that the landowners and outfitters had the power and were repsonsible for stopping all SD road hunting - a SD tradition.
North Dakota is a better place to live. A better place to raise a family. A better place to hunt anything. It was hard enough moving to MN - but SD my god do not make me sick. (sorry TSODAK).
An article in Forum gave a big thumbs up to ND vs SD in progressive routes to "saving the future". Areas such as higher education, technology and other areas of life (biased - yes) were superior.
South Dakota lacks corporate taxation - making it somewhat attractive for some businesses to relocate to.
SD is always posted. Always need permission.
While access to some waterfowl hunting is likely very good (NE SD). No state with the exception of Texas has sold out to outfitters and guides more than SD. While pheasant is indeed king - look at many of the internet boards from SD - access remains an issue despite all of the walk-in land now available.
Now you can not even hunt ditch parrots from the road ditch - not that I care to. Just that the landowners and outfitters had the power and were repsonsible for stopping all SD road hunting - a SD tradition.
North Dakota is a better place to live. A better place to raise a family. A better place to hunt anything. It was hard enough moving to MN - but SD my god do not make me sick. (sorry TSODAK).
An article in Forum gave a big thumbs up to ND vs SD in progressive routes to "saving the future". Areas such as higher education, technology and other areas of life (biased - yes) were superior.
South Dakota lacks corporate taxation - making it somewhat attractive for some businesses to relocate to.
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I am not going to mix it up with you PH. I like it here, and plan to stay. I can only lose. But let me say a couple things. the trespass issue is not as big a deal as many make it out to be. You just have to invest more in relationships. SD has sold its osul out to pheasant hunters. The problems in SW ND are nothing compared to gaining access in SC SD. But on waterfowl they knwo whats what. And people moving there because of it is real. I know some. Lately some of the best and underutilized Pheasant hunting in ND is right north of that despicable NESD. Guess what? They dont stop at the border. All of that is besides the point. But let me tell you this. I have lived in SD for 30 years, and I have never heard or seen the aingst and pain and divisiveness that is gripping this state right now. Any North south battles are ridiculous. Get your head around and realize that everyone can learn from anyone. Each of the states have good situations, and some that need to be improved. Instead of picking one over the other, why not chime in in a constructive way to help????
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I know I am probaly not right, I just do not like South Dakota. But the US Census facts say SD is growing, ND is not.
Facts:
US Census
1990 - 2000 : ND population grew by 0.5%
SD population grew 8.5%
Females 50.4% in SD, 50.1% in ND. More females available in SD.
South Dakota also lead ND is new businesses (37% vs 27%) and in manufacturing shipments (SD 2.5X greater than ND).
Unless you are filthy rich or retired, the reason someone can relocate to SD is more jobs are becoming available.
Number of ducks harvested, geese harvested, ducks/hunter and geese/hunter have typically been higher for ND. Exception is spring snow goose hunt. Someone show me I am wrong here !
Finally,
I am dead set against NO Tresspass laws. Not always so easy to work around unless you invest in Plat Map books for every county you hunt or you only hunt near your own home town.
In SD you must ask permission every time you hunt private land. When hunting ND next fall always ask permission before you hunt ducks or geese and do not hunt if you can not find the landowner. It gets to be tough at times to locate the landowner.
Same goes in MN. Getting permission is not as difficult as finding the landowner. You are forced to buy county plat map books to hunt geese effectively.
Posted or not, I nearly always ask permission for next morning grain field hunts in ND, do not like the farmer coming out to work his field and find me and my decoys in his way. I digress.
Facts:
US Census
1990 - 2000 : ND population grew by 0.5%
SD population grew 8.5%
Females 50.4% in SD, 50.1% in ND. More females available in SD.
South Dakota also lead ND is new businesses (37% vs 27%) and in manufacturing shipments (SD 2.5X greater than ND).
Unless you are filthy rich or retired, the reason someone can relocate to SD is more jobs are becoming available.
Number of ducks harvested, geese harvested, ducks/hunter and geese/hunter have typically been higher for ND. Exception is spring snow goose hunt. Someone show me I am wrong here !
Finally,
I am dead set against NO Tresspass laws. Not always so easy to work around unless you invest in Plat Map books for every county you hunt or you only hunt near your own home town.
In SD you must ask permission every time you hunt private land. When hunting ND next fall always ask permission before you hunt ducks or geese and do not hunt if you can not find the landowner. It gets to be tough at times to locate the landowner.
Same goes in MN. Getting permission is not as difficult as finding the landowner. You are forced to buy county plat map books to hunt geese effectively.
Posted or not, I nearly always ask permission for next morning grain field hunts in ND, do not like the farmer coming out to work his field and find me and my decoys in his way. I digress.
PH,
Again, tame the zeal so you can get the point being made. The point is that due to the perceived decline in outdoor opportunities in ND, some folks are choosing to move to SD. We lost a lot of economic value that folks are not paying attention to. So, these fine people made the wrong decision for you? Not surprising.
Quack,
You probably know a lot of people who have (in the past decade) moved to ND due to the outdoor opportunities. It is these folks (us) that are quite ticked about how things are changing.
A recent nationally circulated job ad for a professional position in Devil's Lake had as its central point that it is a top-notch hunting and fishing destination. One might suppose that qualified interested parties would relocate there due to the outdoor opportunites. Outdoor opportunities do bring new residents to the state - but we have to keep them (us) here.
M.
Again, tame the zeal so you can get the point being made. The point is that due to the perceived decline in outdoor opportunities in ND, some folks are choosing to move to SD. We lost a lot of economic value that folks are not paying attention to. So, these fine people made the wrong decision for you? Not surprising.
Quack,
You probably know a lot of people who have (in the past decade) moved to ND due to the outdoor opportunities. It is these folks (us) that are quite ticked about how things are changing.
A recent nationally circulated job ad for a professional position in Devil's Lake had as its central point that it is a top-notch hunting and fishing destination. One might suppose that qualified interested parties would relocate there due to the outdoor opportunites. Outdoor opportunities do bring new residents to the state - but we have to keep them (us) here.
M.
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TSODAK I have hunted sargent, ransom, dickey, richland counties much of my life. My dogs and I have tagged plenty of roosters in this area of ND. The only shortcoming of this area is winter (guess not this year) always hit this area hard just when things start getting really good.
Just imagine this same area full of snow geese like they were in the 70s and early 80s. Geese till 11 - pheasants and mallards till dark.
I have hunted in NE SD too. Ipswith to Hecla. It was tough at times because even when I had a landowner riding shotgun in our truck - they did not always know who farmed (cash renters, etc) the land or if it was part of a leased hunting operation. There are some big time operations in the Sand Lake area correct ?
You see three hundred mallards in a slough or 20 pheasants run across the road into a dry slough. In ND, you are hunting in minutes. That is what ND hunting is about.
Or you look at the NO HUNTING sign and hopefully get a name and phone number to call (easy now with cell phones). In SD no signs - no starting point. Drive to next farm ? Buy plat books ahead of time ?
If you guys want to stop the average MN hunter from entering ND push for a strict NO Tresspass Law. Easy access is drawing many, many NR hunters to ND. May be better than HPC.
Just imagine this same area full of snow geese like they were in the 70s and early 80s. Geese till 11 - pheasants and mallards till dark.
I have hunted in NE SD too. Ipswith to Hecla. It was tough at times because even when I had a landowner riding shotgun in our truck - they did not always know who farmed (cash renters, etc) the land or if it was part of a leased hunting operation. There are some big time operations in the Sand Lake area correct ?
You see three hundred mallards in a slough or 20 pheasants run across the road into a dry slough. In ND, you are hunting in minutes. That is what ND hunting is about.
Or you look at the NO HUNTING sign and hopefully get a name and phone number to call (easy now with cell phones). In SD no signs - no starting point. Drive to next farm ? Buy plat books ahead of time ?
If you guys want to stop the average MN hunter from entering ND push for a strict NO Tresspass Law. Easy access is drawing many, many NR hunters to ND. May be better than HPC.
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MRN while they may chose to move to SD because of outdoor activities, there also needs to be a job and hopefully a good paying job. 
Manufacturing sector jobs typically pay better than service or ag jobs. Look at SD mfg growth rates.
MY ZEAL says every ND duck hunter moving to SD results in .73 (1/1.36) more NR licenses available under the HPC. I can be a smart***. :evil:
When I do chose to return to ND it will be in part because of outdoor opportunites in ND. I still believe they are fantastic. I have turned down a chance to move to SD even though it was for more $$.
Again,
Before you decide to run me over, be careful what you wish for. NO Tresspass laws are not insurmountable - they just take a whole new approach to hunting. Learning as I go in MN. No Tresspass can be a B****.
ie:: Pheasant here, flock of mallards there, just hunting for the day ::: knock at the door - lady answers - my husband is having coffee in town - I usually let my husband decide if hunters can access or not. :eyeroll:
And yes PH supports caps for NR waterfowl hunters in ND. Written ND legislative people. I do support the HPC - just not so sure the numbers originally established are where they need to be.
ND does not need more than 25K NRs waterfowl hunters in the state period. 5K is a little light even in dry years since I anticipate guides will easily claim 5K for themselves within 3 months. :******:
Manufacturing sector jobs typically pay better than service or ag jobs. Look at SD mfg growth rates.
MY ZEAL says every ND duck hunter moving to SD results in .73 (1/1.36) more NR licenses available under the HPC. I can be a smart***. :evil:
When I do chose to return to ND it will be in part because of outdoor opportunites in ND. I still believe they are fantastic. I have turned down a chance to move to SD even though it was for more $$.
Again,
Before you decide to run me over, be careful what you wish for. NO Tresspass laws are not insurmountable - they just take a whole new approach to hunting. Learning as I go in MN. No Tresspass can be a B****.
ie:: Pheasant here, flock of mallards there, just hunting for the day ::: knock at the door - lady answers - my husband is having coffee in town - I usually let my husband decide if hunters can access or not. :eyeroll:
And yes PH supports caps for NR waterfowl hunters in ND. Written ND legislative people. I do support the HPC - just not so sure the numbers originally established are where they need to be.
ND does not need more than 25K NRs waterfowl hunters in the state period. 5K is a little light even in dry years since I anticipate guides will easily claim 5K for themselves within 3 months. :******:
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PH, now was that so hard to say :wink: H..........P............C............, kinda rolls off the tounge, doesn't it. You're bending a little further, but I know we still have broken you.
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I have a nephew that hires engineers for the state of ND. He has a hard time getting qualified people for the positions. The money that ND is willing to pay runs about 10 to 20 thousand less than other states. Several of the bestpeople he has are single young men . These young men picked ND because of the hunting . They have told him if the hunting continues to become commercialized they will leave . They will go for the money and come back to hunt when they can. I will be making alife change in about 1 year. I have worked in NESD. Iliked the people and the area. If I became a local I have no doubt that that my bird hunting would be world class. I have no roots I will consider it. good luck
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p s the fishing is world class also!
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You know I have always felt that the enemy of most ND hunters (freelancers as Fetch likes to call them) is the guides and outfitters. They tie up a lot of land by posting it shut. The problem is compounded in many areas of ND by landowners not on the payroll (they post to keep the guides off) and by smaller copy-cat guides. :******:
I immediately supported the 22,000K cap early last summer. Any one that visited ND and planned ahead would have had a license. It would have been a very nice compromise. Dan, No problem with HPC - just the baseline numbers.
Yet, I have ****** many on this site off by being open in discussion about many of the issues. There are more sides to this issue than the resident waterfowlers side. What better place to discuss the issues and face the SPIN DOCTORS than on a web site, not when you are face to face with a politician.
I have ****** on many when I said the quality of my hunting has not changed in the last five years and perhaps is better than ever before. Do not chase SOBs in ND anymore - unless the ideal opp arises. Still I do understand many areas of ND has become very commercial - hunted some of those areas long ago. Some were commerical back then too.
And things are changing resident hunters are more organized than ever before, but you know - my pickle story this fall and being approached at other cafes is true. The issue has become "hot" across ND - not just for resident hunters. Again, not a spin Fetch. Is it not better to discuss the issues openly in this forum before hand that run into battle only to get clipped from behind.
I have also brought up discussions on how the waterfowl hunting has changed (target species) and how difficult it is becoming to get young kids to hunt and hunt hard.
OK with that said
Lets see all you resident waterfowlers prove that you are not in it just for yourselves. As NR like myself (I assume Bioman may support some type of cap too) support some level of caps, than you need to help protect the NR freelancer :
Guides, outfitters, and NR landowneds get no allocation of licenses. :******:
Also watch your backside. The NO tresspass law can certainly rear its ugly head has a counterpoint in this battle. A few on this site have said it is not that bad. It will change your ND hunting style more that you would ever believe. Every slough and grain field will be automatically posted. Guide has it ?? , landowner living in AZ in October ??, etc............
Goodbye spontaneous hunting in ND.
Goodbye following the fall or spring migrations through the state and trying new areas of ND where you do not know the landowners very well.
I immediately supported the 22,000K cap early last summer. Any one that visited ND and planned ahead would have had a license.
It would have been a very nice compromise. Dan, No problem with HPC - just the baseline numbers.Yet, I have ****** many on this site off by being open in discussion about many of the issues. There are more sides to this issue than the resident waterfowlers side. What better place to discuss the issues and face the SPIN DOCTORS than on a web site, not when you are face to face with a politician.
I have ****** on many when I said the quality of my hunting has not changed in the last five years and perhaps is better than ever before. Do not chase SOBs in ND anymore - unless the ideal opp arises. Still I do understand many areas of ND has become very commercial - hunted some of those areas long ago. Some were commerical back then too.
And things are changing resident hunters are more organized than ever before, but you know - my pickle story this fall and being approached at other cafes is true. The issue has become "hot" across ND - not just for resident hunters. Again, not a spin Fetch. Is it not better to discuss the issues openly in this forum before hand that run into battle only to get clipped from behind.
I have also brought up discussions on how the waterfowl hunting has changed (target species) and how difficult it is becoming to get young kids to hunt and hunt hard.
OK with that said
Lets see all you resident waterfowlers prove that you are not in it just for yourselves. As NR like myself (I assume Bioman may support some type of cap too) support some level of caps, than you need to help protect the NR freelancer :
Guides, outfitters, and NR landowneds get no allocation of licenses. :******:
Also watch your backside. The NO tresspass law can certainly rear its ugly head has a counterpoint in this battle. A few on this site have said it is not that bad. It will change your ND hunting style more that you would ever believe. Every slough and grain field will be automatically posted. Guide has it ?? , landowner living in AZ in October ??, etc............
Goodbye spontaneous hunting in ND.
Goodbye following the fall or spring migrations through the state and trying new areas of ND where you do not know the landowners very well.
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PH:
You are right, I indeed support a cap. I hunt the central part of the state and the area has been bombarded by non-resident hunters. As I have said in the past, the hunting quality has been so severely degraded that I don't know if it will ever recover. I have hunted this area for over 18 years, and the numbers of hunters keeps increasing year after year. If you see a flock of geese sitting in a field, you should see the number of pick-ups glassing the field. The worst part of the non-resident explosion, IMHO, is the premise that they are entitled to their limits and the behavior that follows this edict. Shameful and shameless, I could go on and on, but it is fruitless.
You are right, I indeed support a cap. I hunt the central part of the state and the area has been bombarded by non-resident hunters. As I have said in the past, the hunting quality has been so severely degraded that I don't know if it will ever recover. I have hunted this area for over 18 years, and the numbers of hunters keeps increasing year after year. If you see a flock of geese sitting in a field, you should see the number of pick-ups glassing the field. The worst part of the non-resident explosion, IMHO, is the premise that they are entitled to their limits and the behavior that follows this edict. Shameful and shameless, I could go on and on, but it is fruitless.
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Been reading these posts and fighting with my computer not sending e-mails messages etc.. So I will jump in on the this onemore time. The guides and outfitters are the biggest threat. We will continue to lose land to hunt on if we do not put a stop to the guides etc.. I did a pole this summer and fall and these are the results.
I started asking 6 questions of the people that I met and recorded the basic answers.
#1 Do currently hunt? 55% yes
#2 Does anyone close to you hunt? 85%yes
#3 What do they hunt? deer 80% upland 55% waterfowl 27%
#4.Are you affected financially from non-res hunting? 62% yes
#5 Do you want to see restritions on guides and outfitters?78%
#6 Do you think hunting access has changed due to guides or non-res. hunters? see below
The overall feeling was that 78% of the 236 people I spoke with want to see some controls, but still leave the landowner his rights to do with his property as they see fit.
69% said that hunting had not been affected neg. by non-res. freelance hunters, but 87% said yes by guides and outfitters had.
Ages of people that I spoke with 21-84.
If you limit the # of acres that a guide or outfitter can lease limit the # of guides and outfitters and make sure that if caps on non-res hunters come about that we do not give any of these to the guides and outfitters. This will make for less presure and less leasing.
I spoke with a Sen. from SW ND late last night and was schocked to here that the guides and outfitters where out trying to lease up even more land than ever because they think that what they have will be grandfathered in if any laws are passed. I thaen made some calls this morning and was surprised to learn that the same thing was happening back in my home area south central part of the state.
This issue is not one of access only, but of game management and rural survival. We currently see many acres leased and not open to deer hunting. This increases preasure on ranchers, farmers, over deer and turkeys destroying feed. It also increases insurance rates due to deer, car collisons. We as hunters have to try and understand that rural ND is different than Fargo, Grand Forks, Bismarck.
Get on the computer, the telephones, the snail mail and let your elected officals know what you want and have all of your freinds do the same.
We need to stop fighting with each other and polarizing the single issue,instead fight for the good of all hunters.
Dick I will e-mail you later if my computer keeps working!
I started asking 6 questions of the people that I met and recorded the basic answers.
#1 Do currently hunt? 55% yes
#2 Does anyone close to you hunt? 85%yes
#3 What do they hunt? deer 80% upland 55% waterfowl 27%
#4.Are you affected financially from non-res hunting? 62% yes
#5 Do you want to see restritions on guides and outfitters?78%
#6 Do you think hunting access has changed due to guides or non-res. hunters? see below
The overall feeling was that 78% of the 236 people I spoke with want to see some controls, but still leave the landowner his rights to do with his property as they see fit.
69% said that hunting had not been affected neg. by non-res. freelance hunters, but 87% said yes by guides and outfitters had.
Ages of people that I spoke with 21-84.
If you limit the # of acres that a guide or outfitter can lease limit the # of guides and outfitters and make sure that if caps on non-res hunters come about that we do not give any of these to the guides and outfitters. This will make for less presure and less leasing.
I spoke with a Sen. from SW ND late last night and was schocked to here that the guides and outfitters where out trying to lease up even more land than ever because they think that what they have will be grandfathered in if any laws are passed. I thaen made some calls this morning and was surprised to learn that the same thing was happening back in my home area south central part of the state.
This issue is not one of access only, but of game management and rural survival. We currently see many acres leased and not open to deer hunting. This increases preasure on ranchers, farmers, over deer and turkeys destroying feed. It also increases insurance rates due to deer, car collisons. We as hunters have to try and understand that rural ND is different than Fargo, Grand Forks, Bismarck.
Get on the computer, the telephones, the snail mail and let your elected officals know what you want and have all of your freinds do the same.
We need to stop fighting with each other and polarizing the single issue,instead fight for the good of all hunters.
Dick I will e-mail you later if my computer keeps working!
Pass the HPC then let the G&FD do it's job & make decisions about what is best for Hunting.
If the Regional Reps knew their stuff & they had a even representation, of all folks involved. (start over & take nominations & ask all interested, to take a survey to try to get balance back on the committee) - then have a election & vote on members, of this group, in each district - (or something ???) - Not just the Govenor :roll: Then they could meet & help decide, what would be the best solutions - within the laws we have & make reccomendations, in the future, to the Legislature to pass new laws.
If the Reps. to the Advisory committee then had a forum (online at the G&FD Web pages) for their districts. To discuss & debate & brainstorm & vote on concerns. So they could bring this info, to their meetings & in their districts have several meetings, in many towns--- I think you would have a much better representation & a more equal balance of ideas & concerns. (sounds like mangement by committee - But it would be more fair & balanced than how things work now) :roll:
PH alot of the things you wish for & keep bringing up, could maybe happen & down the road be addressed ??? But for now, we have to get the best of what will be offered - Try not to confuse many & make this more complicated than it already is. We need to unite & be strong & hope for the best at this point.
If the Regional Reps knew their stuff & they had a even representation, of all folks involved. (start over & take nominations & ask all interested, to take a survey to try to get balance back on the committee) - then have a election & vote on members, of this group, in each district - (or something ???) - Not just the Govenor :roll: Then they could meet & help decide, what would be the best solutions - within the laws we have & make reccomendations, in the future, to the Legislature to pass new laws.
If the Reps. to the Advisory committee then had a forum (online at the G&FD Web pages) for their districts. To discuss & debate & brainstorm & vote on concerns. So they could bring this info, to their meetings & in their districts have several meetings, in many towns--- I think you would have a much better representation & a more equal balance of ideas & concerns. (sounds like mangement by committee - But it would be more fair & balanced than how things work now) :roll:
PH alot of the things you wish for & keep bringing up, could maybe happen & down the road be addressed ??? But for now, we have to get the best of what will be offered - Try not to confuse many & make this more complicated than it already is. We need to unite & be strong & hope for the best at this point.
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Who is confused Fetch ? :eyeroll:
Letting guides and outfitters take a share of licenses off the top will benefit what group of resident freelancing hunters ?
Under a cap scenario, the value of a NR license available through the guide increases because of demand (look at deer licenses). Outfitter charges more ... can lease more land ... especially in the "grandfathered" guide scenario.
Letting NR landownder get a duck or pheasant license first (similar to the deer gratis system) will benefit what group of people looking to buy ND hunting land ?
The guys out-of-state buying SW pheasant land can get gratis deer license. What a perk. Next is ...
No tresspass law. Good for ... ?
Do you really think that there will be no attempt to amend the HPC bill in the ND legislature ? Nothing added to include one of the above topics or something else you have not even envisioned yet ?? Look at the watercraft bill ?? Stranger things have/will happen in politics. How many "hot topics" hunting bills passed in 2001 were passed as originally written ?
I honor your idealism and HOPE, but am sceptical .......... You think you have won only to get kicked hard in the a**.
Stay awake everyone. Hope is for the ill. Tenacity is for the strong.
Letting guides and outfitters take a share of licenses off the top will benefit what group of resident freelancing hunters ?
Under a cap scenario, the value of a NR license available through the guide increases because of demand (look at deer licenses). Outfitter charges more ... can lease more land ... especially in the "grandfathered" guide scenario.
Letting NR landownder get a duck or pheasant license first (similar to the deer gratis system) will benefit what group of people looking to buy ND hunting land ?
The guys out-of-state buying SW pheasant land can get gratis deer license. What a perk. Next is ...
No tresspass law. Good for ... ?
Do you really think that there will be no attempt to amend the HPC bill in the ND legislature ? Nothing added to include one of the above topics or something else you have not even envisioned yet ?? Look at the watercraft bill ?? Stranger things have/will happen in politics. How many "hot topics" hunting bills passed in 2001 were passed as originally written ?
I honor your idealism and HOPE, but am sceptical .......... You think you have won only to get kicked hard in the a**.
Stay awake everyone. Hope is for the ill. Tenacity is for the strong.
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As long as you are I am sure we will be OK. :sniper:
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