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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone see the latest report : Hunter and Angler Expenditures, Characteristics, and Economic Effects, North Dakota, 2001-2002?

I'm just starting to get into it, but it seems that non-resident waterfowl and upland hunters spend less than half the amount of residents - $31.7 million vs $66.6 million. We are the cash cow to the folks who oppose us, not the non-residents. Terrible case of mis-perception.

My belief is that he who shouts first and loudest wins - should we be digging into this report and getting all the important information out for legislators? Having folks include this information in their letters to legislators is probably very important.

Should we organize that effort here?

M.
 

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I have just purchased a hotel in Western North Dakota. I live out of state at the current time. For the small business I just purchased the vast majority of clientale come from out of state. By business record the highest utilization is during September, October, and November. Almost entirely nonresident hunters. Capping nonresident licenses for reasons other than for wildlife management directly effects my financial well being. I do not have too much trouble believing that resident hunters (of course the devil is in the details and how you count economic impact), contribute more to state economy then nonresident hunters but to cut one out of the mix lessens the whole. That should not be ignored. The bulk of the views placed on this board place one set of precieved needs above anothers. I wish there was a group of persons who would take a role in identifying win - win strategies. My customers are free lance hunters. They compete on a pretty much even playing field with resident hunters. Their concern, as I think most resident hunters, is access. Capping nonresident llicenses DOES NOT EQUAL BETTER ACCESS. People who are promoting have errors in logic! If the focus became bettering access then I believe a stronger group of farmers, business, sportsman, and state leaders could be developed to get something of real and lasting value done. Unfortunately, just like how most of you would resist laws that made it less likely you could earn a living, most business operaters will resist capping their customer base.
 

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This just in.

Contact Information:

Arlen Harmoning, ND Game and Fish, 701-328-6329

Dean Bangsund, NDSU, 701-231-7471

F. Larry Leistritz, NDSU, 701-231-7455

Hunter, Angler Expenditure Survey Results Available

Every five years or so, the North Dakota Game and Fish Department surveys hunters and anglers to assess activities and associated spending. Results of the most recent survey, covering the 2001-02 fishing and hunting seasons, are now available.

The Department of Agribusiness and Applied Economics at North Dakota State University conducted the survey.

Data obtained from the report allows game and fish department personnel to identify trends in hunting and fishing activities by comparing current information with previous studies, said Dean Hildebrand, game and fish director. "We understand hunting and fishing plays an important role in the state's economy," Hildebrand said, "and we are at a time when sportsmen and women can enjoy abundant fish and wildlife resources."

In the 116-page final report and 24-page summary, authors Dean A. Bangsund and F. Larry Leistritz attribute a combination of more participants, and greater per-person spending to a $106 million increase in total spending related to hunting and fishing in North Dakota in 2001-02, compared to the previous survey period, 1996-97.

The authors state in the report's abstract that total spending by resident hunters and anglers increased by $73 million, or 22 percent, while nonresident spending increased by $33 million, or 101 percent. Hunter expenditures increased by $31 million or 23 percent, while angler expenditures increased by $75 million or 33 percent over the period.

The authors' abstract also states that total spending by hunters and anglers in North Dakota during the 2001-02 season was estimated at $468.5 million, excluding purchases of licenses. Resident hunter and angler expenditures were estimated at $402.7 million, and nonresident hunter and angler expenditures were estimated at $65.9 million. Hunting expenditures were estimated at $166.4 million, and fishing expenditures were estimated at $302.1 million. Total spending in rural areas was estimated at $213.4 million by residents and $48.4 million by nonresidents.

The authors conclude the abstract by writing: "The economic importance of hunting and fishing in North Dakota has continued to increase throughout the 1990s, and continues to be an important source of economic activity in the state. However, policy decisions affecting wildlife management should not be based solely on economic information, and must balance the ever increasing demand for wildlife-related recreation with the supply of wildlife-related resources to ensure the continued economic benefits that abundant hunting and fishing opportunities provide to the state."

A 24-page summary, as well as the full survey report, can be obtained free of charge by writing Carol Jensen, Department of Agribusiness and Applied Economics, North Dakota State University, P.O. Box 5636, Fargo, ND 58105-5636; phone 701-231-7441; fax 701-231-7400; or email [email protected]. The documents are also available online at http://agecon.lib.umn.edu. Once the web site is accessed, the report can be found by searching under either author's name.

Motel owner, I think many here would agree on a certain level when it comes to pheasant hunting. But the waterfowl is a different issue. The birds are mobile, and the quality of the hunt for all is being reduced by to much pressure, at least in my opinion. Thus, the only way to limit that impact is to limit that which is creating the impact, expanding numbers of NR waterfowlers.
 

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This is one issue that I dont understand why no one has brought up. Resident hunters do two things for ND. We generate income for the ND economy and then we reintroduce this income back into the state. Like MRN says, we are the cash cows, and I feel like no one is willing to see the light.
 

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Hotel Owner,what city is your hotel in?If your clients are all freelancers,how much land access is open?I would like to comment,but not until I know which area you are in. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
MO,

How many NR's do you want to see? When is Full = Full. When do we put out the No Vacancy sign? Your representative organisation has been MIA on this issue. I believe their official position has been "More". Win-win means compromise - where are you going to meet us?

Due to the current circumstaces, you have lost at least 1 resident hunter from the base - I didn't hunt in the west this year. I know of many more. If the hospitality industry were genuine, wouldn't they be just as concerned about the loss of resident hunters as they are in any potential limit on the growth of non-resident hunters?

M.
 

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Any of you guys work in mfg industry.

cash cows get little resources for development or capital dollars for improvement - little respect - take the money and move it elsewhere - you are right they are simply taken for granted.

new ventures get the resources, capital, and high visibility within the company.

How many residents took the time to lobby ND merchants last fall. Chris did you stay in a motel during your December goose hunts. Can not imagine any NRs around at that time. Should have been good PR.

Move yourself off the cash cow platform.
 

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Motel...welcome to nodak outdoors.If your guests are freelancers,are you testifing on the bill to regulate outfitters?Your guests won't have anywhere to hunt if some restrictions aren't put on them.
I stayed in the motel in Elgin 4 weekends= 7 nights.I ate in the rest. in town for every supper.I bought gas at the stations there.Every time I was there at least 1/2 the license plates of hunters were form ND.
The figures above are interesting.The one that jumps out at me is that res. spend 213.4 milion and non-res spend 48.4 million in rural areas.
 

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The hotel is near the National Grass lands. And, no, win - win does not mean compromise. I use the term in the Steven Covey manner (7 habits guy). The paradigm you have determines the question and the question determines the answer. "How many is enough?" Isn't the question to me. How do we gain adequate public access and insure good habitat is my question. I've read a few posts where someone will offer ideas on how to raise revenues to use to increase access. These ideas don't seem to get much positive remarks and quickly it is back to caps. Why not have an ideal of securing all CRP and other federal land reserve program acres for public access? If that was the ideal then the question is how to secure the money to attach to the leases. If at the time of a farmer signing up their land in these long term leases the state piggybacked a contract to pay for access I believe most farmers would be swayed by a 1 - 2 $ contract over the length of the CRP (or other) contract. I know that CRP lands are not always the land needed for access but I think a model like this may be usable to address other access issues. I also thought the idea concerning changing the law to be more like Canada's where you can not legally lease land for the purpose of hunting was worth more discussion. Maybe tax breaks for farmers who maintain public access? Maybe no guiding on land not owned outright buy the guide?

Let me admit I am not sure of the answers to these difficult times. However I do believe that we must work together. The feeling I am getting is that it is an us against them fight and frankly although I want to help ensure good hunting I don't want to support caps at all costs, especially if hurts my family. I will also say I can't believe that the pheasant or the sharptail population suffers from over hunting.

As far as losing the resident hunter, frankly I do not yet know the impact of the resident hunter coming out to western ND to hunt. What I do know is I have a registry full of nonresident hunters who have used our hotel and have them already booking and paying for next falls stay. I have not had a resident hunter call to reserve a room for the fall. The nonresidents I have talked to have stated they have come out for years.

I invested in this hotel largely because I had the opportunity over the last several years to come to North Dakota and hunt. I fell in love with the country and the people and want to have something for me and my family there when I retire. This hotel is the beginning of making this possible. I don't wish to get into a fight with anyone on this page and don't even want you all to know what the hotel is because I do not want a backlash. My point is I would like to find a solution that I can support and that I believe helps solve the problems in a way that meets the majority of interests. Thanks for the chance to express an idea.
 

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Hotel Owner,

Welcome. Although I don't agree with some of of your views, I will say you have some good ideas pertaining to access. Most of these have been discussed at one time or another on this site as well as others. I think you may be mistaken in the attitute of some of the posters on this site however. Even though many resident hunters were not in favor of the early pheasant opener, most have no problem with the vast majority of NRs that visit the state for upland game hunting, especially the freelance hunters that you have staying at your hotel. Somewhere along the way in the last several months the pheasant issues have become entangled with the waterfowl issues. If you are truely from the western ND area, and I don't doubt that you are, then your clientel probably doesn't hunt waterfowl a great deal. As you've seen in ths forum, hopefully, is the majority of the posters aren't advocating a closure of NR hunters. They are just saying enough is enough. There were 30,00 licenses sold for waterfowl hunting last year. Every hotel I called was full in the good waterfowling areas. How many more would be enough, 40,000, 50,000.

If your hotel is full during Oct, Nov and Dec you can bet the rest are also. Where do you advocate all the additional hunters the hospitality association wants to bring in stay? Sorry, but I think it is a legitimate question. I am a resident of the state and I know that if I don't secure lodging a year in advance for the duck, goose, deer and pheasant seasons that my sons and I would be out of luck. I've tried to find hotels during the Fall, it's nealy impossible. How many more hunters can the small town hotels handle? The caps are a concern of the waterfowl hunters not the upland hunters although the influx of big money and the purchase of land by wealthy NR upland hunters is a problem in and of itself.

I do believe that compromise does = a win-win situation. Take the time to look at the hunter Pressure concept if you haven't already done so. It's a starting point....maybe the baseline nummbers need to raised, lets talk about it. Maybe the 30,000 NR hunters there were this year is a good number to start. I'm cetainly not advocating 30,000 NR waterfowlers every year but perhaps it's a good number to keep the hotels filled to near capacity. Maybe 25,000 might be just as good. I do know that there ARE going to be many disappointed NR waterfowlers next Fall if we don't break the drought cycle we are currently in right now. The southern half of the state, at the very least, is very dry and the sloughs HAVE dried up. Only the big water remains in many areas.

Good luck with your venture. Maybe our paths might cross in the future.
 

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Gee MO, I must say you are not exactly who I thought you were. The ideas you have for opening up all that land really would go most all the way to solving all the problems. The problem is, it can will never happen. If you try to pass a Saskatchewan style law in ND, the outcry would sound all the way to Washington, and I dont knwo if it would hold up constitutionally. I hear stories of people recieving 30 $ an acre annually for lease of the best CRP. Not much going to open up for a buck and acre a year in the best areas. SO how do you address it??? One logical thought is to remove some of the users. Might be bad for you, not so bad for the gas station guys???? What about the car salesmen who sell cars to residents staying int he state? Your property taxes??? You get my point. Right now, living here gets you precious little in the form of preference as far as hunting, compared to some states.
 

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Well I just don't know.

The land that is leased for huntying around my place isn't going for 30 bucks an acre. CRP rates are typically between 22 and 32 an acre. Leases for hunting is typically 1 to 3 bucks an acre.

And to Field hunter you are very correct. I am reacting in part to the recent issues around Pheasant hunting. I actually do favor the HPC because it is based on the resourse.

As best as I can tell, the issue with capping pheasant hunters or limiting the amount of time they can spend hunting has nothing to do with the pressure on the birds.

tosdak yea I realize that I am pretty wishful in addressing access but you have to admit it would not be too hard to double the funding of the PLOTs program just through licensing changes, special access stamps and other actions to increase revenues. Maybe I am a little dense but I think most people interested in these issues would support those measures.

As far as where to put more hunters I would love to expand our 12 room hotel or we have discussed a camp ground addition. We are lucky in part because we have the biking trail close by to pull people in June, July and August.

Having said all I did I can see that the lines are probably drawn and I know that everyone here wants what is best for the sportsman of North Dakota.
 

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Motel Owner welcome to ND. I want to pose a question to you.
What $$$$$ amount is the Hospitality Industry going to put into access programs? Right now they have their cake and eat it too. I would like to see a few tousand acres of PLOTS sponsered by local small town businesses in each county "That depends on hunter dollars" so much.
 

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Hotel Owner How far back did you look at bookings in the fall ??? I can see the past 5 years being dominated by NR's - But before that many Resident's traveled to Western ND towns to hunt. (I'm from Ray ND originally) & have hunted the entire State. But it is no longer worth the hassles & rejections.
Here is another ND forum that I wrote a plea for NR's to join us in our battles with Guides & Outfitters & misguided commercial / Hospitality people, that have been spooked to believing what we think is good - is bad for them. http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/show ... genumber=1

Are you a member of the Hospitality Assn. & is there not anyone from there, that really hunts & / or understands all this ???

I'd like to run the Tourism Dept. & be able to coordinate & cooperate with the Chambers of commerces & ND G&FD & landowners of communities that want to improve their participation in Fall Hunting opportunities. The possibilities are untaped & almost limitless - But going the route of Pay to hunt is not the best answer. Also having unlimited free for all of NR's is not either.

What is even sadder is the towns that have tried this - You can tell they really don't have people who know what hunters like & how they think & what they are looking for. We could grow & improve this hunting paradise if folks could work together & do what is Best for all.
 

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I spend a little time each day thinking about the PLOTS program MO, and while it is a wonderful program, pt some real numbers around it. There are over 3.3 million acres of CRP in ND, of which we have 150000 enrolled in the program to date. So, that means we can quadruple the size of the program, maybe by only doubling the budget, maybe tripling, who knows. In a couple of years we might have 1 million acres enrolled. that means 1 in three acres of CRP is open to the public. Just look at what that means. Sure there is more available for the public. But MOST OF THE GROUND IS STILL PRIVATE!!!!! The sheer scope of the issue dictates that most of the land is going to be private for a long long time. This issue is going to have to be addressed from the source side as well as the resource side. I am not saying that the average is 30 dollars an acre, but if there are people paying that, it impacts both other lease rates and the effectiveness of state programs to lease that land. Heck plots pays more than $1 per acres per year. Going to drop out of this for a while before I say something I should not, Tom
 

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Fetch,

You bring up some very interesting points concerning the tourism in ND and how it COULD relate to hunting. I don't know how many times in the last 10 years I've had to wonder why nobody in several of the small towns we base out of in the Fall don't do anything "special" for the resident as well as NR hunters. I'm sure there are a few events around the state, the Bottineau shootout and the Kenmare goosefest are a few, that do actually sponsor and take advantage of people hunting in the state but there are many communities that seem to welcome the added $$ in the Fall that could do much more to bring the revenue that is needed in the small towns.

Imagine if the Tourism department initiated a program to help the small towns with programs such as dinners for the hunters, hunting contests, duck fests, etc. I can't imagine the $$s that could be brought into a local community that would sponsor a duck fest for instance. Run it for a week every year say in conjunction with a local harvest days. I'd bet the town could pack the hotels as well local homes willing to rent rooms. I recall a conversation I had with a member of a local volunteer fire department about how much money the NR hunters spend in the town, he thought it would be a great idea to have the department sponsor a duck contest that would not only generate NR dollars but resident hunters $$ from outside the community. How much gas, food, and shells would be sold during the course of a week. One of the small towns we frequent in the Fall used to have one of the local churches rent the local hall and charge 8-10.00 for a home cooked meal...the place was packed. Now there is nothing.

I guess I'm trying to say there are ways the Tourism department can promote the state other than bringing in more numbers of hunters. I think they should utilize the people they have here in a better way which could benefit everyone.
 

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MRN-yes that report has to be combed and presented and used. It is great support for residents arguements as to their dominant economic importance.
Resident sportsman spending in rural areas is more than 4 to 1 above nonresidents. The best customers of this business already live inside the store. In other words, everytime a resident sportsman is displaced by a NR there is a 300% dollar loss to the rural area. Call Mr. Iverson with that one.[/b]
 

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", everytime a resident sportsman is displaced by a NR there is a 300% dollar loss to the rural area"

Can you expand on this a little more Dick, how they are displaced that is?
 

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Come on Dick, that is a stretch. Will agree though that residents are using these hotels, cafes, and gas stations year around rather than just 4 weeks in October.

One difference is NRs probably use the hotels on weekdays and weekends where most residents are just staying Friday and Saturday night.

I grew up in eastern ND and we traveled (often far) and spent a lot of money (well my dad did) hunting in ND ALL FALL LONG. If you did not leave Cass county you spend the day killing time not birds.

Quite a few deer hunters out there spending money during deer season, when at best 1% NRs can participate. Deer hunters outnumber waterfowl hunters (I know many are represented twice) by about 3 to 1.

You also so have resident trappers, archers, turkey hunters, fox hunters, etc... that while each are smaller by themselves, have an accumulative effect on total resident hunter spending.

Resident $$ spending is real. NR $$ are real.
 
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