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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does any one use these? Since I am new I bought a few, before I bought the new versions from the actual bullet makers. I was given advice on loading some Barnes TSX bullets. I was told I could use the X bullet info with the TSX for bullets of the same weight. THIS IS BAD ADVICE!!!!

25-06 with 100gr X bullet and H4831sc OBOC shows 54.5 to 58gr I shot a few of the 100gr TSX with 55gr and it blew the primer out of one and flattened the primer on the other two.

I then checked my 7MM loads. The one book one cal said RL-22 with 140gr X bullet should be 65-69gr. (or some thing close...... I am not at my reloading bench right now, so I can't be sure) I loaded 5 cases of each in 1 gr increments and topped with the 140gr TSX. When I checked my Barnes #4, which I didn't get until well after I loaded these, it showed (again some thing pretty close to this) 61-66gr. I pulled all these bullets and started again using the #4 info.

Why do these books work well for "bullets of similar weight" in some cases and not in others? The similar weight thing worked great for the Barnes Varmint Grenades.

I am tossing these books and just going with the Manuals from now on.
 

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There are many reasons why you can not use just one load for similar bullets.

1. No two barrels are the same.
I have seen two different 6.5X284's built by the same smith using the same reamer shoot very differently. One was about 250fps faster then the other.

2. Different bairing surfaces on the bullets
Even bullets of the same weight will have different lenghts of surface area in contact with the barrel.

3. Different chaimber/ lead configurations.
All this is one load in a perticular gun will be fine with no pressure signs and the next may be a min spec gun and you can have blown out primers or worse.

Those books are a great guide line. If one states you can use 7 more grains of powder than the next section you may want to see what you can get in to the cassing total then go from there. ALWAYS START LOW AND WORK UP.
 

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I have one for every rifle I reload for and I have had no problems so far.

I do wonder how often they are updated because they are pretty much just a copy of that calibers reloading data from the bullet manufacturers reloading manual but otherwise I have no issues.

Jaybic
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
After having the couple bad rounds with the flattened primers and blown out primer I pulled all the bullets, dumped the powder and started over. I used the Barnes #4 min charge with the bullets seated .050 off the lands and I am still getting flattened primers. I fired 2 shots at the range and stopped. The brass was full length sized, I am not using a crimp on my bullets. I measured the charges I loaded on my calibrated electronic scale, and my calibrated Hornady balance scale. What am I doing wrong?
 

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I don't want to sound condesending, but you do know that IMR4831 and H4831 are different, right? Perhaps you are getting confused with those in the load data? Perhaps you have a batch of bad powder? Perhaps the bullets are little larger in diameter than other manufacturers? The barnes web site does not list H4831 for that bullet in the 25-06. Perhaps it is a poor choice of powder in combination with that bullet. I personally don't like Barnes, or Barnes bullets. I prefer to steer clear of them. http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/25- ... tonWeb.pdf

I am doubting that you have damaged your rifle, but I think you could if you continued with it. Reasons for my doubts, are that in my younger years, I loaded some pretty hot stuff in my 7x57 and it still drives tacks (with the proper loading). It likes a load that is around 2gr under max and pushes the 150gr bullet at velocities that are pretty high according to the books. For reasons I don't understand now, I tried stuff as high as 3gr over max just to see if it would handle it (moved up 1 gr at a time). Report was horrific, as was recoil, and accuracy. Primers where smashed completely flat. Finally came to my senses and backed off to the original tack driving load and it still shoots great today.

People has given some good reasons for always starting low and working up. I don't always do this (even though I know I should), but I definitely would when using something way out of the norm like a TSX (or anything else from Barnes, for that matter).

I am going to start a new thread on a Barnes related topic. Perhaps you will have some insights on it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't want to sound condesending, but you do know that IMR4831 and H4831 are different, right?
Yup, I am quite sure they are different even though I don't load the IMR. The problem in my first post is I confused the H4350 info I shot with H4831 info I shot when I was typing. I used the H4831 loads that gave me the problems.

I just said to hell with it all and am only loading what the Barnes manual says from now on. The OBOCs will be fire starters.

I just wanted to get the idea out there that some times using a load for say the Origional X bullet at 100gr won't work for the TSX at 100gr as I was told it would. I hope others can learn from my mistake. thanks for all the posts!!

Laite
 

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I was told I could use the X bullet info with the TSX for bullets of the same weight. THIS IS BAD ADVICE!!!!
Yes and no. You should be fine using the "starting charge" indicated in the book. As you work up the load I would expect there would be some difference due to bullet style. Just follow safe proceedures for working up a load and look for pressure signs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
dakotashooter2, I did exactly what you are talking about. I fired the minimum load from the OBOC, which was over max by what Barnes told me. Unfortunately I did't have the Barnes #4 before I loaded most of these rounds.
 

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The differenc could be in the throat of your rifle or the barrel length as kinda stated already. My dad has 2 7mm mags one is a remington 700 the other a browning highwall the browning is a 28 inch barrel and very thight throated. he can not shoot the remington loads through it or it will bulge primers and actually blow them out on some occasions. With some bullets he actually has to start loading about 5-10%below the min recomended load or he bulges primers. Just something to think about
 

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Hey Chris...
Personally I like the Loadbooks and have quite a selection. A guy can go broke buying every updated edition of the hardcover powder manufacter's books.

I'm sure you've noted that even with identical weight/design bullets using the same powders, quite often there is quite a bit of difference between loads of different manufacturers.

That being said, loading is a process of experimentation. Although the majority of loads in any book will work, it's prudent to work up loads cautiously. Variables such chamber/throat variations, different makes of brass, and so on, all have to be taken into consideration when working up a load.

I firmly believe that with specialty bullets such as the solid brass stuff, it's utra critical to follow the suggested loads exactly. These type of bullets give no leeway when it comes to pressure. That's one of the reasons I shy away from loading them...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I recently was told that powders can vary pressures from lot to lot up to about 3% and different brass can make pressures vary up to about 3%. Is this true?? I am assuming that is why starting low is stressed so much.

A guy can go broke buying every updated edition of the hardcover powder manufacter's books.
Sarge, I know buying the updated manuals gets a little spendy, but if it saves a $700 rifle, and/or my face I will come out ahead. :D
 

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Yes a new lot of powder can vary that much most of the time not so much. It is a good idea to run a few test rounds with a new batch of powder. If you are buying new brass and new powder it is in your best intrest to do some quick load development.

I use these books for my most used calibers. As I stated before they are a great reference as all reloading manuals are. You will have to test each load in each gun you will fire it is.

It is totaly crazy to just look in the book and say x is a max load and then load up some ammo with that speck. In your gun you may have a very short throat and your actual max load will be 1 gr lower than the book max.

EDIT

I have a 7mm STW and my max is 82gr of H1000 with a 140gr bullet. The Books are telling me it is 84gr of H1000 with a 140gr bullet. I tried to go up to 82.5 and man I had a sticky bolt so for my gun 82gr is max

END EDIT
 

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Yep, the pressure generated by powder can vary, and all are affected to one degree or another by abient temperature and altittude. This is why I favore Hodgdon's Extreme Powders, as they are much less affected by these factors.

Another critical pressure variance factor can often be found in different capacity of makes/lots of brass. This is mainly an issue of military rifle brass but can happen with factory brass, and can drive a person nuts. It's not unusual for the case capacity to be significantly different which can lead to an otherwise safe load being compressed, with attendant pressures through the roof. This is why it's generally not a good idea to mix brass types when loading.

Military brass will turn your hair gray, in this regard. when loading 308's I've found military brass can be a good couple grains less capacity than the Federal Match stuff I favor. I don't even mess around with the stuff anymore as my hair is gray enough already...

When working up a new load, I start by checking several manuals for the bullet weight & powder I'm going to work with, not just the ones related to the specific bullet & powder companies. That gives me a good idea of the min/max range. I then start min and work up. Rarely do I end up with a true max load, usually I settle on a grain or even more below the low-mid range published max...

Over time, via experimentation you will find the bullet types you can play around with or interchange. In varmint calibers I've found that Nosler BT's interchange with Hornadys VMax and Sierra Blitz Kings, for example. In big game calibers, Sierra, Hornady, and Speer's BTSPs in the same calibers/weights interchange just fine (although that's not to say that any neccessarily share POI when loaded the same).

BTW, the loads I've found that have the surest safety margin with actual performance closest to the published figures are from the Speer manual...

Again though, and I can't stress this enough, the culprit in your case is those solid brass/bronze/whatever construct bullets. Not being anywhere near as soft as even a lead bonded bullet, they will quickly lead to pressure problems if not loaded exactly to the specific bullet's recipe.

As an aside, steel shot loads will do the same thing, as opposed to lead shot loads which give more leeway due to lead's compressability...
 
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