[SiouxperDave]

Sen. John Andrist letter: Farmer has right to profit from hunting

The Forum - 11/10/2002

How ironic that a lawyer, Dan Buide (Friday, Oct. 25 "letters" column), who no doubt charges up to $100 an hour for his services, feels so deprived when enterprising farmers want to charge him up to $200 a day to hunt on the land where they furnish most of the resources to nurture the game.

Who can blame farmers for trying to make a few legitimate bucks to supplement their income?

Nevertheless, if fee hunting troubles him that much, there is an enormous amount of space here in the west, unposted and available to any hunter who wants the outdoor experience and is willing to work for it. I've yet to visit with a hunter complaining about pressure. This is a myth that Buide and others, particularly in the east, keep repeating.

The growth in out-of-state hunters only (approximately) matches the decline of in state hunters in the recent past. Meanwhile, nonresidents have brought an enormous economic boost to the small towns in the heart of our best hunting habitat in western North Dakota. Hunters represent a huge boost in tourism for our state.

Another reality is that posted land is on the decline, at least in the northwestern part of the state. Fewer occupied farmsteads and lower livestock numbers are probably the reason more farmers are willing to accommodate hunters. So if you share Buide's desire to hunt free, come on out. Just don't ask the Legislature to grant you special privilege by keeping out other hunting enthusiasts who are giving the west such a nice economic boost.

There is room for everyone - and plenty of game as well.

Sen. John Andrist

R-Crosby, N.D.

 

[zogman]

I may have to go to Fargo for legal services, no lawyer chages that low fee here in GF.

 

[Fetch]

Who can blame farmers for trying to make a few legitimate bucks to supplement their income?

No one ??? I just hope they realise that they need Libility Insurance (that ain't cheap) & I hope they pay taxes & report the earnings. Like anyother business.

& will there always be game for them to sell - ??? & how & why did that game get there (pheasants) in the 1st place ??? I'm sure the idea was to be a cash crop :roll:

I've yet to visit with a hunter complaining about pressure. This is a myth that Buide and others, particularly in the east, keep repeating.

He must not get out of Divide county much ??? Like most people who say this, they either are not really hunters, or don't go more than a few miles from home & they have not had their favorite spots taken away by $$$ & greed. Plus watched the public places, in their region, become worthless & / or overcrowded. Believe me, it is happening in some areas & will only get worse every year - if nothing is done.

The growth in out-of-state hunters only (approximately) matches the decline of in state hunters in the recent past. Meanwhile, nonresidents have brought an enormous economic boost to the small towns in the heart of our best hunting habitat in western North Dakota. Hunters represent a huge boost in tourism for our state.

This is why there is the need for two licenses - should be seperate Waterfowl & Pheasants licenses - Raise the fees & make the funds go to improve access & law enforcement.

The decline in residents, is more because of the same reasons, all these areas are declining, for most everything else. A few will farm these areas & have giant game preserves someday. Wonder how the tax payers in the big ND cities will feel about helping pay for their other needs ??? I'm sure the NR's will be in favor of new taxes & tax hikes & fee hikes to replace the taxes needed to keep things alive out there ???

Just don't ask the Legislature to grant you special privilege by keeping out other hunting enthusiasts who are giving the west such a nice economic boost.

I have always contended that Residents from the east & bigger cities have always filled the available services out in the few towns that have any. (For Hunting) Statistics prove we out spend NR's in the past - Now, not many residents want the hassles, so NR's have crowded us out of the towns with these services. We have suggested more zones & spread the NR's out over a longer period of time each fall. That would be true economic development.

Caps were a interim measure (if this is what he means by legislative privledges) ??? But we support the G&FD 's Hunter pressure concept as it has some science behind it. - It is sad to see such huge tracks of lands become private game preserves - where pheasants are released to give the group after group of NR's hunters the feeling they are shooting wild pheasants. Cause this is inevitable & will be exposed over time. What are these people doing to manage the animals ??? What if the G&FD adopted a law or rules that said they will only help those that allow public hunting. Kinda like they do in deer depredation cases ???

Same ol Same ol one sided thinking.

 

[tsodak]

Actually, it is against NDCC to qualify access to deer depredation programs only for those not posting. In reality, the rules now state that even if someone charges for access for deer hunting, he or she is just as eligible for those programs as someone who does not post his land..... good deal huh???????

 

[bioman]

How low brow and shamefully pathetic can a person get :eyeroll: I didn't know this issue was about a person's livelihood. What about all of the people who can't afford to pay for fee hunting, or chose not to out of tradition, values, etc. Absolutely disturbing that an editor would allow something like this to be printed uke:

 

[zogman]

It's called freedom of the press, bioman. I think they even have it on the left coast :eyeroll:

 

[Dick Monson]

Senator John Andrist's email address is [email protected] and he needs to hear, politely, what you think of his letter. Perhaps the only people he has heard from in the past are outfitters.

 

[prairie hunter]

Go visit Burke and Divide Counties. This area of ND is on its very last heartbeat. Do not agree with everything he is saying, but you need to understand that this part of ND has become EXTREMELY remote. They are absolutely desperate for any chance to survive.

Sell his soul ... I bet he would if it meant a chance for his district to remain economically viable.

If you want to bash him fine, but may be offer him an idea or two to keep this part of ND from becoming the first Buffalo Commons territory within ND.

 

[MRN]

Pickle hunter,

last heartbeat? - that's a bit melodramatic - have you ever been there? Those counties are no different than hundreds of counties in the Amercian and Canadian west. They live and die with agriculture, the grain elevators, and the railway. Crosby probably has significant oil and gas money too. Hunting isn't even a blip on the economic map for most folk.

The good senator should be working for better farm commodity price structure, better rail support, and better farm policy in general. Those folks aren't surviving on game animals, they are growing crops.

If the good senator were interested in serving the folk within his district with regard to hunting issues, he would join resident sportsmen and work to make a zone system whereby more R and NR hunters would visit his fine town. Perhaps the 48 folks (estimate based on 2001) shut out this year would be happy to visit his fine town?

I am not sure I saw the original Dan Buide letter, but I am confident it was well spoken, intelligent, and swayed the opinions of many reading it. That probably ticks off the pimps and guides and senators they take hunting.

M.

 

[prairie hunter]

MRN,

I would have guessed that a gentleman of your psyc(hotic) profession and University professionalism would be somewhat beyond playground name calling games. If it makes you feel bigger (Freudian Joke hehe) ?

MRN: Have you been to Divide ? I have many times to hunt and work. I have friends living there too. I have driven cattle over 15 miles across Divide county.

This remote region of ND needs jobs of any sort. The few farmers, ranchers, and landowners (profiting from gas and oil) that remain there are likely doing fine.

Towns and the townies are fighting to survive. I guess when I visit Divide county towns I would like to see more than a bar open for business.

Again, the largest problem in this area is simply loss of people. Burke county has only 3,002 people (2000) and Crosby, ND, has 1,200 people. I could not find any further data on Divide county as a whole but would imagine that the county is similar in size to Burke.

If a farmer decides to tap into hunting as a cash resource .. I guess that is their right. Do I like it --- NO WAY. :******:

Still while you accept your NDSU paycheck. I would assume you also do some consulting work or receive money through research grants ... do you personally receive any extra cash for these endeavors ?

Do I agree with Andrist ? No :******:

Are expensive hunting lodges the answer ? (no way) I would hate to see this area go the way of Mott. Probably never will because about one in three winters gets tough up there and keeps the pheasant population stranded at a decent level, but below the high, high, high levels seen in the SW part of the state.

Crosby has one hotel, Bowbells ???, maybe three lodges or so already running up there ??? so why the big fight by Andrist against the caps.

I would imagine it might be the small rural counties saying "don't tell us what to do, how to do it, when to do it !! Oh sh** now I will get smacked for starting that one up again. :wink:

Guess that why I come to N...Os.

Your S&M Poster,

Prairie Hunter (that is MR. Pickle Hunter to you MRN).

 

[MRN]

No, no, no, I'm really quite big enough - honest. I just think the pickle hunter moniker is funny. But if it upsets you....

I drive through Divide & Burke a several times a year for the last 16 years or so. I never considered Divide Co remote - probably because I came from, and passed through, real remote regions hundreds of miles to the north (the absolute edge of earth - that is, the edge of agricultural land). Guess its just "perspective".

The problem is that only a FEW farmers and ranchers are left. They are the life blood of any region. Small family operations have disappeared and large operations gobbled them up to survive. The problem is that commodity prices haven't changed significantly in 20 years or more. If the farmers could make a fair living off of their crops and livestock, there would be more small farms, and small towms with active churches and busy schools. All the jobs that go along would be plentiful. Hunting won't change that.

Moreover, I believe the senator is quite disingenuous - he knows if 20,000 more hunters came in, very few would go to Divide. He should be the poster child for zones, making sure his constituency gets its fair share.

Moreover, I don't think is it legitmate that land owners charge a trespass fee to hunt state owned animals - but that is an old, well worn argument.

As for research grants - you gotta learn how stuff works before you spout. Ya, the $250,000 goes straight into my checking account....

M

 

[Fetch]

I'm not sure if "Pimp" is an attack ???

But I guess in the context - as in not being personal - I'll let it slide :roll:

I wish the moderator police would tell me when I'm screwing up ???

Carry on - k: I like the good points being made :thumb:

I'm moving to Fortuna :roll: build a compound that no one can get in - then go catch all the wild game & bring them in to my compound & not share with anyone - I may even bring the writing rock in there too :roll: :lol:

 

[Bronco]

The biggest joke to ever hit rural ND is that outfitters, guides and fee hunting will save rural ND. Anyone who believes that has some severe mental problems!

Outfitters come in to profit-not to help the poor ailing farmer. If a guide takes in $100 bucks-he maybe gives $10 to the farmer. In addition- you may have had 100 residents and freelance NR come into a particular town to hunt-whereas with a guide you may have 5-10 guys come in, so the rural community doesn't benefit from these jerks either because they lease up & post all the land in the area! :eyeroll:

The bottom line is that rural ND has to drop this fictional idea that hunting will save them- IT WILL NOT! Rural ND has to do things to attract industry or businesses-and it can be done. Companies in California are looking to relocate to areas with skilled workforces and cheap businesses environments- Rural ND has this-just get the message out! Secondly, the farming community has to look at other ways of profitting off their crops! Selling through the traditional "middle man" won't cut it anymore! Why is it a farmer gets $40 for a hog, yet I pay 5 bucks for a pound of bacon!!! WE as sportsman have to back farmers and say enough of this crap already! We will buy direct from the farmer if the stores & middle men can't get their house in order.

99% OF ND'S PROBLEM IS THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PEOPLE IN THIS STATE!! THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE OF THE ASSETS UNDER THEIR NOSE'S-NOR DO THEY KNOW HOW TO MARKET THEM!!!!!!!!! The best idea these fools could come up with was to take North out of North Dakota to make the people come a running!!! Solve the poor rural ND economy problem and you will solve access problems!!!!

 

[Fetch]

$6 to $10 a bushel for wheat could not hurt either :beer:

 

[MRN]

Fetch,

Oh, I thought he was upset about "pickle hunter"...

Pimp? Let's see what Websters has to say:

pimp - noun - a man who solicits clients for a prostitute
prostitute - noun - 2: a person who deliberately debases his or her talents as for money.
Neither is labeled vulgar.
Describes the situation well.
Where's the problem?

M.

 

[prairie hunter]

Damn it MRN !! That is MR Pickle hunter to you.

 

[Westerner]

Bronco,
I agree that improved commodity prices would help, but that won't "cure" things either. People in the west that do sign up through fee hunting services look at it as "diversification." They have learned to not put all their eggs into one basket.
I know it is different in other areas of the state, but in the Mott area where I know a lot of people on both sides of the issue, fee hunting has brought in bounty during the hunting season. Most of the NR hunters that come in and do the fee hunting thing bring nothing but their guns and clothes. They depend on locals to provide food and all other services. Also, even if these companies come in from out of state to do the outfitting, they buy gas too, hire local people, or bring in new people to guide, etc.
As for eliminating the "middleman" be careful of that too. One of those middlemen is the local grocer (they need money too). That is how economies work. People do what they do best and do it in enough quantity to make it valuable. I am in favor of some direct marketing, but I am hesitant to cut out middle men.
Finally, I am still unclear on why outfitters would lease up huge tracts of land and then release pheasant onto them. If they are leasing by the acre, why lease more acres than they need. If I am a businessman and have a plan to lease land and then release pheasant onto it I am going to only lease as much land as I need to safely hunt (1-2 quarters should do it). Bring the people out, release the pheasant, have them shot, bring in the next group. Why would I choose to lease huge tracts of land and increase my expenses. If it is because of the numbers of people that hunt that they need to repeat this process over and over to make it impractical to do it on only 1-2 quarters, then that is a lot of people that come into the small town and spend their money. The only reason that an outfitter would want to lease lots of land is so that they can manage it and give it time to "rest" to provide quality hunting when it is used again. It is either circular logic or illogical.

The biggest joke to ever hit rural ND is that outfitters, guides and fee hunting will save rural ND. Anyone who believes that has some severe mental problems!

Outfitters come in to profit-not to help the poor ailing farmer. If a guide takes in $100 bucks-he maybe gives $10 to the farmer. In addition- you may have had 100 residents and freelance NR come into a particular town to hunt-whereas with a guide you may have 5-10 guys come in, so the rural community doesn't benefit from these jerks either because they lease up & post all the land in the area! :eyeroll:

The bottom line is that rural ND has to drop this fictional idea that hunting will save them- IT WILL NOT! Rural ND has to do things to attract industry or businesses-and it can be done. Companies in California are looking to relocate to areas with skilled workforces and cheap businesses environments- Rural ND has this-just get the message out! Secondly, the farming community has to look at other ways of profitting off their crops! Selling through the traditional "middle man" won't cut it anymore! Why is it a farmer gets $40 for a hog, yet I pay 5 bucks for a pound of bacon!!! WE as sportsman have to back farmers and say enough of this crap already! We will buy direct from the farmer if the stores & middle men can't get their house in order.

99% OF ND'S PROBLEM IS THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PEOPLE IN THIS STATE!! THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE OF THE ASSETS UNDER THEIR NOSE'S-NOR DO THEY KNOW HOW TO MARKET THEM!!!!!!!!! The best idea these fools could come up with was to take North out of North Dakota to make the people come a running!!! Solve the poor rural ND economy problem and you will solve access problems!!!!

 

[Dick Monson]

Westerner, In 1992 I visted one one of the first people to go into commercial hunting at Mott. He gave us permission to hunt that year, but told us next year most ground would be leased in the area. I asked him why the commercial firm would need so many acres? His reply was that if people had a place to hunt at no charge, they would not need an outfitter.
His group was in effect "buying out the competition" and raising the price, in the same way that any other business buys out a competeing business, and then closes them, leaving the consumer at that buyers mercy, in this case the outfitters mercy.

The second business tactic that the outfitters must have is saturation liscenseing . They accomplish it by having an unlimited number of nonresident liscenses for sale by NDGF, NRs being the target market, as few residents will pay. Saturation liscenseing assures that any habitat not leased will quickly be pounded to dust by large numbers of freelance hunters. And the birds will move to the least pressured areas, the leased land.

The third tactic commercial hunting uses is aggressive advertiseing aimed at NRs with the full assistance of the North Dakota Tourism Dept. The ad campaign assures the saturation of avialable open habitat by hunters.

 

[bioman]

Dick:

Very intuitive post; however, you left out one key element: the North Dakota Game and Fish Department. They also market the non-resident, only in a much more subtle aspect. When I flew in last year for the pheasant opener, there they were in the airport with their information booth set up to answer questions, hand out brochures, etc. After all, revenue generated from licenses, especially from the non-resident is extremely important. Not meant as a personal attack on the NDGF, but a reality that most never see.

 

[muzzy]

Bioman, just to correct you, the game and fish department does not market to nonresident hunters. First of all we don't want to, and second we don't have the time to do it. The ND tourism department is who you saw at the airport. They get a bunch of PLOTS maps at no charge (free publication) and stand at the airport and hand them out showing everyone where all the opportunities are. This tactic upsets some people at the department for two different reasons. #1 The tourism department is benefitting off of the backs of sportsmen, they get to use this free publication for their own benefit and contribute absolutely nothing to produce it. Sportsmen pay for producing this publication. #2-This just adds to the problems of over run plots.