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Having just returned from a successful hunt south of DL, I wanted to chime in on how unrepresentative the views expressed on this page are with respect to non-resident hunters.

The four hunters in our party are all well versed with NODAK outdoors and were preapred for the backlash from the local residents where we were staying. After all, us NR's bring boats, hunt on top of resident hunters, and take your favorite hunting spots or so it is routinely expressed in NODAK outdoors.

Guess what? Other than bringing boats (which solves an otherwise difficult storage problem and allows access to otherwise impossible to reach areas), there were no issues and there was no backlash from the resident community where we stayed. In fact, it was to the contrary - Farmers waved, landowners allowed us to hunt when we asked; Merchants such as gas stations, restaurants and grocery stations welcomed our visit and our business.

The NR "thing" is really cooked up by a minority of the resident hunters who have nothing better to do than *****.

Respectfully Submiited,

Wire Giant
 

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Wire Giant,
I think you have missed the boat. There are no residents that dislike non residents. Most of us here hunt with non residents and fully understand that non residents enjoy hunting as much as we do. You have only proven your ignorance on the issue. :eyeroll:

You seem to have missed the idea that the main goal of many people on this site is to maintain the resource and maintain the quality hunting that brought you to North Dakota in the first place. I welcome hunters to ND and hope that they have a good time. Just like the farmers, store owners and others do. On that note there are many people here who would like to have 200,000 waterfowlers come into the state so they can make a few bucks off of it. The problem and this is my opinion is that they have little care for the welfare of the resource. So some of the residents have fought against this.

Remember
One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.
 

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your right it is a minority.

Rap, PETA is a minority in the country but yet they are vocal and active and get things passed that don't represent the majority. What was the # turnout at the legisature events of 30,000 resident duck hunters?
 

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scissorbill wrote

Good post, but in order to keep nd a quality hunt it would be nice if you would stay in illinois, and by the way,keep your friends home too

that is why some other things get said and taken the wrong way
 

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Lazyass,
Look back at the post you took scissorbills comment from and look to see what was said to him by others. It is convenient to say we all think this way but then you are stereotyping me into a group just like you think we are stereotyping you. The street runs both ways.
 

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i never said all i have gotten alot of pm form alot of nice people and when i go to nd we have never been treated bad had a gun break and had residents at a cafe offer to let me use one all the people around westhope, Bottineau and around the state park are great and have never even had a cross look form any of them
 

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Also remember that the ignorant one's that lump every NR as one is a MINORITY OF THIS FORUM.

I don't have enough time in the day to retype every point that's been made on all of this. It's been posted 100 times. If someone has the time to find all the usefull threads that cover all of these issues, please let me know and I will make a list and keep it at the top of the hot topics.

I'm working on a function where you can block the posts by certain usernames. I'm sure if you blocked out a handful of people you'd get a more well rounded view on the situation. But again that'd be your choice to decide who you want to read and who you don't want to waste time flipping past.
 

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While we can all point to things that will bolster our point of view I think the main point here is that most of us have seen a drop in the quality of hunting these past 5 years. When I was returning to hunt as a nonresident it was seldom if ever we saw another hunter after waterfowl, jump forward 3 years later and things where getting crowded but still reasonalbe. Some area's I have been in this fall where overcrowed and down right dangerous, others not much for pressure.

What I am seeing is a lack of respect for other hunters in the field or slough. Guys jumping a slough that have another group in with decoys. Shooting at high birds just to keep them from dropping into decoys. These are the things that have degraded the quality of hunting because when you put to many people into the same place after the same resource greed and disrespect rear there ugly heads.

Two of my favorite spots had hunters on them before 5:30 in the morning, no problem I move to another spot, I am not jealous or mad but I am disappointed. Now go to plan C set up only to have another group just come in and downwind setup chaffed me a little but I thought what the heck why not join up so all can hunt. They where not intersted or even polite.

Repeat this over and over and you wonder why people are getting a little sick of this. My days afield are limited just like someone coming here for a fall hunt.I value my time, but apparently others do not respect that. Crowding I think is mistakenly used as description for rude behavior and unsportmenlike activity.

This applies to both res and nonres hunters. While many do not realize they are acting badly because this is the way it is back home, it is not well recieved by those they infringe upon. Cancarver you just do not have a clue, your posts from past and present show this. It does not mean you are uneducated or uncaring just uninformed. You look at things in microcosims instead of big picture.

LZ I have not figured you out as of yet. Wire Gant you are right in the fact that we want hunters from other area's to come, but not the slobs that tend to cause the hard feelings. I will be hunting with nonresident this weekend and the following, good people that anyone that loves outdoors would like to share a blind or boat with. Not greedy or disrespectful decent hardworking outdoor loving people.

So I gues maybe we should start a new thread that rips the slob hunter and the greedy hunter and the uneducated hunter, and not try and pinpoint it to Res or NON.

The bigger issues are still there and need to e addressed. This is not a res vs nonresident fight like so many have tried to make it, it is deeper and more complex than that. Read the past posts from Dec through May and you will maybe gleam a better understanding or the overall picture.
 

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Hell I've hunted with 2 different parties this year that were here from other states. Heck last weekend my father got done shooting his limit with some friends and saw some guys ( from MN around 25 years old) watching their decoys for about 2 hours. When he was done he asked them if they wanted to hunt in his decoy spread. They did, and shot their limit in 20 minutes. I jut don't want evreyone and their brother out there, running through the slews. We need a cap. It willl only show which NR really stay on the issue, or maybe you could say the real outdoorsman. The smart ones will aplly before the one who just want to come up randomly. Liscenes prices might hold at a simplier price?

It's not that we don't want them......it's that we can't take them all.....
The pressure on the birds is to heavy....ask anyone who hunted this weekend or last weekend. The number of birds has gone down to the numbers of hunter has gone up!!!!Things don't work good when you have a rising demand and no supply!

Mav....
 

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Great point Mav. thats what ive been thinking this whole time. Like you said its not that we dont want the NR's, but we cant handle all of them .Im glad to see that you got an A in your econ class. :beer:
 

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CC, the turnout for the two major hearings was stronger for the resident hunters than those who opposed the waterfowl cap. Not a 2 to 1 margin mind you, but probably something like a 3 to 2 margin. Those that have been involved in these issues for many years marveled at the sportsperson turnout, which historically could have been counted by the average Norwegian (I'm one) without removing his shoes. This session, I'd estimate more than 100 (think that's pretty conservative) for each of the two big hearings. Sportsperson turnout at the hearings and other participation during the session was very strong on a relative basis.

Let's try (again) to put some of this "dirty-dozen-whiners" theory to bed. An essential read for anyone who wants to comment about the mindset of ND's on these issues is Evaluation of the North Dakota Game and Fish Department 2002 Public Opinion Survey, Larry Mark Gigliotti, Human Dimensions Consulting (Feb. 2003). You can request a copy from the NDG&F.

Questionnaires were sent to an identified person at 1250 households. There were 402 respondants, which characterized themselves: 14% non-anglers (never), 32% inactive anglers (not for last two years) and 54% active anglers (fished in last two years); and 42% nonhunters (never), 26% inactive (not for last two years) and 32% active (last two years).

As to some of the questions asked:

1. The Department should limit the use of ND fish and wildlife resources by non-residents:
Agree - 58%
Neutral - 19%
Disagree 23%

2. The Department should buy additional land to provide fish and wildlife resources and access to opportunities to enjoy them:
Agree - 43%
Neutral - 22%
Disagree - 35%

3. Professional hunting guides Should NOT be able to lease access for hunting:
Agree - 48%
Neutral - 18%
Disagree - 34%

4. Professional hunting guides should be allowed to operate on public land:
Agree - 40%
Neutral - 17%
Disagree - 43%

5. The Department should meet all resident sportsmen demand first, before allocating licenses to non-residents:
Agree - 67%
Neutral - 13%
Disagree - 20%

6. Local Businesses (for example, motel, restaurant, and service providers) as well as resident sportsmen need to be considered when allocating hunting licenses:
Agree - 68%
Neutral - 16%
Disagree - 16%

****************************

What does this all mean? Well, I think the responses, when aggregated, say about what many of on this board have been trying to say for a couple of years now. There is a limit to how many we can take in to preserve quality and affordability. The economics are important, but nonresident tourism dollars must be weighed with a desire to preserve traditional hunting opportunities for residents. We've got enough to share, to a degree, and should do so, but first cut goes to those who pay taxes here, fuel the economy here year round, may choose to live here for the opportunities, etc.

No, the survey doesn't break out feelings on various types of hunting, but I think it provides some pretty strong insight on the general lay of the land. Given that the general public (including a very heavy dose of non or very casual outdoors folks) have some pretty strong feelings on the issues, I can't imagine that the results of this particular survey directed towards active ND sportspersons wouldn't yield an even more dramatic response. If memory serves, the SA survey, directed to active ND sportspersons, was even more telling, by a fair shot. I'd ask someone with that info to repost the results.
 

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WHAT!?! You mean you WEREN'T pulled from your vehicle by an angry mob of resident hunters and tarred and feathered? This is OUTRAGEOUS!!! C'mon, what's the DL Chapter of the NodakOutdoors Lynchmob been doing? You guys need to get on the ball and start terrorizing any vehicle with out-of-state plates trailering a duck boat!!! Toss on those Camo Hoods and get out there boys! :******: :lol: :roll:

All kidding aside, no one has any problems with NR's. You come here to enjoy a quality hunt and ensuring that a quality hunt can be had by all in the future is the only concern. I'm glad you had a good time and a good hunt. I've personally had a great time bs'ing with a ton of NR's, even hit the bars with a group we met from WI on opener this year and had a blast. I just got done hunting with another group of friends from WI last week and I even have my 'NR family' coming up from MN to hunt this week. I even occasionally make it out in a boat hunting time to time! I think you might be taking what was intended to be some friendly razzing and took it a little too personally. No one here hate's NR's...they just hate being downwinded after spending an hour setting up decoys. :D
 

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dan, I am not going to argue point by point its worthless to attempt change your mind. you have your views and think your right and I have mine and think I am in the middle ground.

I am more passionate about the sport of duck hunting than you can imagine and hunt differently than most people. I absolutely hate crowding, ahole hunters and people who call themselves hunters but are more killers with the whackem and stackem attitude. I dislike spinners, 3.5 inch magumns and john boats. I think the only time a guide should be used in for seaduck hunting. I don't hunt for the kill but rather the expereince of the hunt. In fact in 7 years of hunting ND I can count on my hand the times I reached my daily bag limit. Over the last few years I have replaced my plastic decoys with hand carved cork and cedar, I now own a hand built cedar strip duck boat, alomg with a couple other old style boats and prefer to hunt with a old SxS. i prefer to hunt bills and cans over shooting mallards in a feild.

I appreciate the ND experience more than most, not only as a duck hunter but as a preservationalist, environmentalist and the passion and love of the priaire region. I do not want to see ND hunting hertiage effected and in my experinces there has been more damage done by new laws and rules than by the increase in hunters. I feel I need to say this so I am not labeled as a person who doesn't care.

I think my agenda represents a logical approach to the issues at hand from a NR prespective.I will post this in order of priority.

1. Have a tresspass law, this will reduce the res and NR from taking advantage of the current laws, will keep alot of NR's home and only hopefully attract the ethical hunters. Its my opinion that the current law is unethical, and attracts unethical hunters.
2. Absolutely no zones, they only benefit G/O, and hurt the freelancer.
3. Limits of 25,000 to 30,000 NR are fine.
4. Somehow keep G/O in check, limit land they lease, tax their income, I am unsure how to do this but it is extremely important
5. You have already raised the cost of a lic, so its to late to keep that in check.
5. with the extra revunue from NR lic, Hire seasonal (like park rangers) wardens, to minimize the problems with road hunting, over bagging, and aholes that hunt to closely.
6. seperate income tax and additional form for landowners who lease out their land. May discourage farmers from doing so.
7. maybe have a law that requires a minium distance to another hunting party.
8. allow boats(one thing fetch and I agree on)

BTW
My brother is out there right now in logan county, he has seen only a handful of hunters in the sloughs or fields, but has seen road hunters. He has had no problems with other hunters around him, no permission denied and has had great mix bag of hunting.
 

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~CANCARVER~ Most of those things are what we are trying to establish in our state, but when you have more money coming in from outside influences you can't beat what the outfitters are leasing up. Especially in a state like ND. We are a little different than other states. We (unfortunately) are a poor state.Yes we have a steady enconomy but no real big cities (outside of fargo). We have a tough time when we see money coming from Texas and Missouri that is going to outfitters for land access.

If we could get half those things done you said, it MIGHT not get sold out. Ther might actually be a chance. Allas we need help from the NON-RESIDENTS. Help support a cap. Be vocal about those things you believe in......
NR are starting to buy our land that some of us can't afford to buy.

Mav....
 

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CC, well we share one thing in common - we both think we represent the middle ground. Actually, we have much more in common than that. Draw a circle around our respective beliefs, and for that matter, many of us on this site who get into whizzing matches over nuances, and much of the circles overlap. But, I won't accept that what's been going on out there for the last few years is troubling and bothersome to only a handful or even a minority of resident hunters - that's a mischaracterization.

Sounds like you're primarily a big water guy. As such, and especially in the years you've hunted ND, pressure and competition are less known to you. There are some of you diver guys out there, but the vast majority in ND hunt and compete for the smaller water and feeds. Somewhat different game - somewhat different issues.

Don't by any means wish to start an argument, but since you've taken the time to develop a detailed action list, I'll offer my $.02.

1. Trespass. I've given this a lot of thought, and explored the issues you raise. At the end of the day, however, I don't see a law change as positive. SD, after having the ND rule for most of it's existence, adopted such a critter in the not too distant past, and it has done nothing to stem the tide of pheasant hunter numbers there or the trends to commercialization. Tony Dean and many of us don't agree on a lot of things, but I recall him regretting, for the long term effects on the "average joe sodak hunter", his support for the SD law change.

Additionally, for waterfowl (at least for the dabbler guys), you've often got to move quickly, and things are ever changing - oftentimes finding a spot for the next day just before dark on the day before. Unposted, no problem. Posted with a name and hopefully a number, no problem some/most of the time. Trespass law change, you may or may not find the landowner. Would need to get a trailer and a second mortgage - not for decoys, but for plat books.

It may cut down on hunter numbers for a while, but talk about an incentive to drive hunters to outfitters. Think that industry would be the big winners in a law change.

It's certainly not a lay-down that a law change wouldn't have some positive benefits, but I think those benefits would be very short-lived without action in other areas, and would represent a net sum loss, even with the other actions, in the end.

2. Zones. My same old line: great in theory, very hard to implement. The only way they work is probably to tie them into something like HPC, where you create probably no more than 8 zones that are intended to represent equal hunting opportunities based upon conditions, and provide for the possibility of "amnesty" in the event of weather conditions, e.g. mid-October freeze, that leave a zone virtually birdless.

We get a workable cap, with the internet and all (no secrets anymore), I think things fairly work themselves out on the zoning issues. The areas that have better conditions and more birds can take more pressure and vice-versa. Zones will get very messy, politically, and frankly I think there's more important things on which to spend energy.

3. Cap. HPC or some other dynamic cap. The prospect of 50-60K hunters WHEN things go really dry again is almost amusing if it weren't so ridiculous. That many hunters WHEN things go dry, even the big water guys will be bumping gunwales.

4. O/G. Agreed. Room for what's there, but they definitely disproportionately affect the whole deal, and will negatively affect nearly everyone with a stake in these issues, if they continue to expand. Without some cooperation from this group, it will come to a showdown, and there's many possibilities here.

5. License costs. Up, yes, but still a fargin-bargain by any standards.

Other 5. Seasonal wardens. Neat idea, please pass it along to G&F.

6. Special tax on leasing. DOA - it'll have to be done a different way. To varying degrees on varying issues, we're still a pretty strong landowners' rights state, and even the moderate "landowners' rights" folks would strongly oppose such a thing. Gordy Kahl would spring from his grave if this were tee'd up.

A "recreational use" r/e tax bill came up last session and had some support. I thought it was kind of snotty myself. Message: "By god, yes, we want you non-locals here, and by the way thanks very much for subsidizing the local taxes for the rest of us." Didn't see it as any deterrence to hunting land investment - If you can afford to pay double or better the ag value for play land, a higher property tax probably wouldn't mean much.

7. Minimum distance. Again a neat idea, but probably more fodder for field brawls. Can you imagine the guys with their rangefinders and 300 yard measuring devices? To nearest decoy/decoy? To nearest hunter/hunter? I think this is one of those legislating morality things. Not opposed, but could make for some interesting times, and we'd definitely need the seasonal wardens if this came to pass, and they'd feel like a bunch of day care providers.

8. Duck boats. Sure. Not for most of us, but sure. In fact, we "whiney dozen" helped reshape a bill that would have banned motorized duck boats last session. I found the session pretty humorous at times, and this bill became known as the "row, row, row your boat..." bill. Seemed like a recipe for disaster with the inevitable folks that would still have tried to access big water without power, and this would have unfairly limited the legit, albeit relatively small number of, diver guys. Bill got changed into giving G&F more authority to use PLOTS $ for rest areas and other water issues.

BTW, would love to see your dekes. Post some pix.
 
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