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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Had an interesting conversation last night with a ND landowner who has been following the NR issue. They said if there are drastic limits they would post their land to keep out Residents. They understand what NR's mean to the local economy, and blamed a small number of people from the larger cities for causing an unjustified uproar. They claimed and I would agree that majority of the Residents that hunt, Hunt occasionally.

My take is this is they are right, Majority of residents that duck hunt do so opening weekend and maybe a couple of times after. They were only roughly 1500 people attend the meetings you held around the state. How many resident small game license are sold a year I think I saw like 60,000. Come on that is a tiny percentage of people who even care. I would guess statewide there are about 500 resident hunters that feel there is an access/NR problem.

Ducks and Geese are Migratory; they are not your resource exclusively. I and millions of people pay for habitat, research and the enforcement of laws in your state and their flight corridors.

Access problem, please, you have the ONLY state I know of that you can walk/hunt land that's not posted. Out of the 7 years of hunting ND I have never been turned down permission to hunt, and have met some great people who are extremely friendly and down to earth. The people that complain on these sites don't do the majority of ND resident's justice. The people who complain sound like a separatist movement, pretty soon you will be planting car bombs on trucks with MN lic plates. Take a look at the posts from "outside the box" and tell me what it sounds like. How many thousands of acres are in WPA? (Which I and millions of hunters and non-hunters paid for) How many thousands of acres are available to hunters if you ask? With the exception of those 500 hardcore duck hunters (Duck hunt 10 days or more) most resident's road hunt, or hunting sloughs just off the road.

ND already has limits. NR can hunt ducks for only two weeks, at a cost of $100 bucks. Show me a state besides SD that limits NR even more. Yeah its great hunting but I know of other states like Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas and a country to the north that have comparable hunting. Yes, ND residents fishing in MN, owning lake cabins in MN, hunting elk in MT, trophy whitetails in Sask or WI, Salmon fishing in Alaska buying a time share in FL or taking a vacation to the Bahamans, are all good analogies to the problem you think you have. They all have residents that feel privileged on where they live and their lifestyle. Remember that next time you hunt, fish or take a vacation out of the state

Limiting absentee landowners? Would never hold up in court.

Now with that being said what are the issues that I see and solutions. First the resources if ducks are losing in the battle, then take some action. Not just hearsay either, there needs some type of study to determine the problem. Second Guides, plain and simply if your are seeing a "crowding" problem in your area (which I use lightly) is it possible there are 1000's of acres leased up by a guide? Well focus on the problem; limit the number of acres a guide can tie up. The only way freelance hunters would contribute to the "Access/Crowding" problem would be created by the loss of open land to hunters, forcing everybody in few areas. Which may exist in a few areas, I have never seen it and with the water levels, public land, access to private land and abundance of waterfowl it would be hard to imagine. Solutions have the State or Feds buy more land that is managed for waterfowl production and open to hunting. Improve habitat on private lands, restore drained wetlands and ask permission on posted lands.

So to end this rant, be reasonable.
 

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There are way more that 500 serious duck hunters in ND. And, by the way, it is the casual, couple times a year duck hunters that are bad mouthing NR. Most of the serious duck hunters in ND don't really care about the NR coming to hunt. The major problem is access. you are flat out lying or hunting in a bad area if you haven't seen an increase land leasing or the posting of land in the last seven years. Even if there were only 500 serious duck hunters in ND, does that mean that they shouldn't have a voice? I think not. If ND ever gets to be like Ark. or LA for land access then the NR can just stay home and tell "Remember when" stories about ND, but WE will still be here.

Also, next time I hear the fishing example I am going to puke. I see a heck of a lot of boats going out to Devils Lake and Lake Sak from out of state every year, but I don't care because you can't lease a lake. Access is the issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes I have seen an increase in leased land and hunters. But it has not effected my duck hunting, or access there are to many potholes and public land. I would welcome more hunters to move birds around, I like hunting with decoys and there are so many places for them to go without getting distrubed. Thats why I don't see the problem, it hasn't effect me.

I have hunted in the Lakota area as well as woodsworth to ashley area. last year in mid Nov. We were the only duck hunter I saw, and we found thousands of Mallards on a WPA close to a major road and had an unbelievable hunt. We did almost got shot by a deer hunter driving down the road while I was walking back(found out later you could hunt deer 1/2 hour after sunset)

I truly believe some of the factors that are increasing your NR numbers leased land are the direct result of the internet, your tourism dept, and the loss of hunting areas near the metro regions of Mpls, Milwaukee and chicago.
 

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I shouldnt even dignify this post with a response, but I am going to make it short. Read Fetchs post on Negative NR.

[ This Message was edited by: muskat on 2002-04-06 21:38 ]
 

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Where are u from cancarver?? i probably shouldn't touch this, but I don't like to back down....
 

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What is the name of the landowner and where is he from? I'd like to give him a call. You can drop me a private message with the phone number to make it easier on me.
 

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I love how SOME people from other states like to tell us how things are in ND. This last year was a fluke. It was warm and birds stayed, and because of deer season and most NR's not planning a trip in Nov. there wasn't much pressure. Oct. was the worst month I have ever experienced with pressure. i have been hunting waterfowl almost every weekend in the fall for fourteen years, and after Oct. last year I seriously thought about fishing more. You also talk about restrictions well I don't think two 7 day periods is restrictive, and at $100 a license that is a heck of a deal. Why don't you let the people who live here decide what is the best way to go. I too would like the name and # of the landowner. We want people to come and hunt, but not all at the same time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
first Chris and Eric, my conversation with land owner was regarding land for sale and their comments were to me, so I would feel comfortable relaying their number to people who oppose their stance.
I found chris's website this fall and while the other site had all this bantering, chris and the views of the people posting at that time seemed resonable. But that seemed to have changed. I still have yet to hear legitmate claims/stories of access problems or over crowding because or NR's. I would like to hear where, why and how? Now I see a proposed # of 10500 that does not have any research put into it and have yet to hear examples of the problem. Can you see why this is so frustrating. To have a small number of Residents(1500 at meetings/1000 in united sportsmans Allanice/1500 in NDWF some probaly are counted twice) that are causeing such a big turmoil in a state that I not only love to hunt in but have had nothing but great experiences, met wonderful lively people with beautiful wide open prairie, and so much history. There is roughly 60,000 ND resident small game/waterfowl hunters that is less than 1% of the hunters feel there is a problem. So with no examples and such a small number of supporters I fail to why there should be changes that effect me and some 30,000 other US citizens.
 

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I have talked to a lot of farmers who have been offered big money for leases to their land from NR duck hunters. It is happening all over. We want to keep it like it is right now. If NR numbers continue increase like they have then you won't be able to hunt wherever you please anymore. And as far as small game, have you ever even hunted pheasants in SW ND? It is just as bad as SD as far as access is concerned, and there is NO public land out there. The cheapest access that you will find is 50 bucks a gun a day. I would like to see you have this arguement with a resident of Dickinson who isn't fortunate enough to have a relative that farms in the area.
 

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You all come for the opener & then in a couple weeks it's the Minn teachers convention - Then the next weekend it's the Wisc. Teachers convention - You all pack into towns like Devils Lake - Rugby - Botteneau - Lakota - Minot - etc. (I'll let others report on towns south) So 3 out of 4 weekends in Oct it's rediculas. Even that one weekend (not mentioned) is bad enough. Most of you won't risk Nov. cause of freeze up or storms.

Spread those out over the entire season & in many different areas & there would not be a problem. Like I said any water that has ducks & not completely surrounded by hunters is not crowded to folks from Minn. - Wisc. - most any other state ??? We don't want to be like that.NOT EVEN CLOSE !!!

I wish, one season, every out of state hunters could be checked. For violations - I know for a fact, In General they shoot way over their limits - Most birds are not even retrieved. Plus many eat & store over their limits. Not to mention abusing shooting hours. Or just hunting without a license. Using electronic callers - even in the fall. I do believe they commit more of these violations than Residents. But I wish all (residents & NR) would get busted & not be able to hunt again. That would help too. Maybe with Cell phones all Nodakers can & should Help police this - Be aware & call & report what has been happening.

I 'm tired of being a NICE !!! (Tough but Fair comes to mind).BUT we all need to stay Mad as Hell & not take, or put up with what is happening to ND anymore. All the opinions & meetings & political know nothing & blame everyone else is getting old. The G&FD knows what to do & How to do it. They need to tell the Govenor & get on with it. If he flinches he's out of here. This isn't & should not be political, or a economic issue. Everyone can try to SPIN these things all they want. But solutions have been brought up that make sense & would help landowners & resident hunters. Thats all that really should matter. If NR's get to hunt & not disturb this balance then they should feel lucky - or move here.

[ This Message was edited by: Fetch on 2002-04-08 19:31 ]
 

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The reason I asked for the phone number was so I can understand the landowner's concerns. I don't even know how to put the number of doors I've knocked on into perspective, but I've never heard the concerns and views you had mentioned from any landowner I've met.

Before you attack my views, I think you should read a little closer. I want what's best for ALL freelancers who hunt in the state. Assuming from your post that you are a freelancer, you're in the same boat that I am as far as access. I want the quality of hunting and opportunities to hunt in the state to outlast my lifetime.

Unfortunetly, you as a freelancing NR can get thrown into the same category as a high roller NR from the big cities. The high rollers are posing the biggest threat as they are more than willing to whip out their wallet for any situation that arises. I cannot afford that lifestyle, so in return I scout my a$$ off to make up for it. I grew up hunting up by Bottineau, Devils Lake and fell in love with Canada hunting out by Gackle and have seen how areas have closed down to access.

I have never supported the 10,500 max that you mentioned. In my honest opinion, that doesn't have a chance. With the chance at over 35,000 NR hunters next year, that has access issues getting worse. I have no idea as to the total, but I'm going to assume that 90% of those hunters are freelancers. But that 10% of pay hunters is getting way out of hand and the amount of tied up land clearly shows it's results. Is it coincidence that the number of guides in ND jumped from 72 to 300 in just a few years? They are trying to target that 10%. I believe someone posted earlier that the Cannonball Corp. leases 50K acres for just 400 people in a whole season.

The Hot Topics of this site wouldn't go anywhere if we had the same 5 local guys agreeing on everything. Your input is just as valuable as anyone else's. That's why I wanted to talk to the landowner, so I can understand his point of view. If you'd like, you can call him and tell him to come here so he can explain it for us.

We're not the legislators, we don't make the laws, we just want what's best for all of us freelancers. In the past year I've hunted with dozens of hunters from all over the country who want the same thing I do. And I want to be able to hunt with them in the future. Unfortunetly, some feelings will get hurt along the way. That's what it takes to make progress in such sensitive issues.
 

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Cancarver...you made a very good statement..."a state that I love to hunt in but have had nothing but great experiences,met wonderful people with beautiful wide open prarie."That is the reason I moved here from Minn. 30 years ago.We just want to keep it that way.If we don't get started on it now before it is to late we will be like everywhere else.There must be some,but reasonable limits put in.I don't believe 10,000 is reasonable.
As for a small group trying to change things...That happens all the time.And we are not as small as you believe.I've heard that legislators are feeling the pressure.They are saying that there are 3 political parties in ND...Republicans,Democrats and Sportsman.
 

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We do appreciate your input and it does take guts to call it as you see it. The opening of waterfowl last year was horrible. A lot of birds got pushed out of the state because of the pressure. When scouting birds there would often be three or more other groups scouting the same feed. For the first time I felt crowded and frustrated by the numbers of hunters. As far as only 1000 people attending meetings that was a heck of a turnout by ND standards. Some of these meetings were held in smaller towns and we had to drive 25 miles to one we attended. The Gov. found out how resident sportsmen feel and this group in ND is bigger than people realize. We don't want to limit the NR because they help an economically depressed state, but where does a person draw the line?? If the numbers keep increasing the hunting will get even worse for everyone. We have also proposed raising fees for residents and NR's and using the money to give to landowner's who allow access. We have hit a level of frustration by everyone so how do we balance this?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Chris and others I am trying to understand and point out the other side. Just what NR's go through. Yes I am a freelancer, never have used a guide in my life, which may change this fall if I am able to go on a sea duck hunt in Maine. I have started carving my own decoys, I would someday like to build my own cedar strip sneak boat. I would prefer to hunt divers any day to puddle ducks. I don't have a enclosed trailer to haul my field dekes matter of fact I haven't field hunted in ND sure I would like to someday but because I don't have the equipment and I am not going to hire a guide to do it. I am not a big money hunter, I grew up hunting, put myself through school obtained my masters, worked Wetlands, Stormwater and natural resource jobs dependent of funding. Some years because of limit $ I have only took on trip to ND. My family purchased 100 acres in ND for $120 an acre and mortgaged it. The land is not just a hunting spot it is our passion. We are proud when we see broods of ducks and geese, swimming out of the cattails, or when a sharptail flushes, or when I see a native prairie flower. we are working too restore the prairie to native grasses and flowers. Did we buy to hunt it solely of course not.
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I don't see the need for guides in ND it is too easy to scout and find ducks on public land or ask to permission from a landowner. Leasing large tracts of land for ducks or geese would seem limiting. I mean I have traveled to different parts of the state depending on species I am hunting or where the concentration is. That is one reason I don't like the idea of more zones. If I am planning a freelance trip to ND and pick dates in let say in mid Oct and I spend money to get there and reserve motel I want to go where the ducks are. Like this fall when South Central was the place to be and the devils lake area was froze. Then I am out a Trip? Do I spend the money and have a poor hunt? Your deer zones stay the same year in year out, ducks zones could change day to day. I also take a set my second week in Nov hoping to get a migration sometimes I do sometimes I don't.

Now I understand and can sympathize if you feel it has gotten out of hand, whether not if I see it, I know how I would feel if my hunting area was taken up by NR or residents found out about it on the internet or Magazine. I can understand because it has happened to me here in WI in a couple of ways, one land is being bought by Illinois people (Flatlanders, FIB's-- F*%&ing Illinios Ba**$ards) for houses. It has taken thousands of acres the locals have hunt for years and forced them to public lakes and land. Pool 9 on the Mississippi is a major staging area for canvasbacks because of the internet, DU magazine and TV show, a and Major Guide what used to be 20 cars in the parking lot can be double triple that. Its not uncommon to have people set up 100 yards away. Now I know you don't want that, well neither do I for WI, ND or any state. But just don't see access or over crowding a problem in ND.

SO why not focus on the guides and how much they can lease, the alliances haven't addressed it. They probably think that buy reducing the NR numbers access will get better. But from the cannonball example it seems that is not the case, that even if you reduce the NR # you will still have guides leasing large tracts for small number of people, just charging them more, making them richer. Lets look at it this way say you limit the waterfowl lic's number in half, 15,000 the NR wins and gets to hunt, how much more is his trip worth, a lot, He might not get a chance to hunt ND again for some years. So to make as successful as it can he is going to enlist a guide that can guarantee him a trip worthwhile. That means the guide will need to lease as much land as possible to satisfy his clients. It may be far fetched but again look at it outside the box. How much of the land leased in the SW is hunted by NR's there only 15,000 NR upland hunters I would guess some of those shot a couple roosters of Sharpies while on a duck hunting trip, it would seem that a lot of it is leased for and by resident from the bigger cities. So why penalize all NR's for a problem that will continue to exist.

As far as NR violators I think you will be surprised the ethics are just as bad NR or resident. I have said before road hunting deer is unethical to me, road hunting ducks and pheasants is also unethical to me, walking/hunting on private property whether it is posted or not is unethical. I have seen a lot of residents hunting this way. I once saw a suburban for of residents drive through a plowed field, jump out and start shooting a flash water pond. So do some NR shoot over their limit, or violate in other ways maybe. I would be all for more searches for NR's and Residents.

I think you would be surprised at next years NR's number if no limits are imposed, once brood surveys come out, and pond counts are lower, the economy stays the same I don't think you will see another drastic increase.

to balance this the needs to be understanding, and not a me me me attitude. I would bet that a large portion of these allainces travel out of state on hunts. How would they feel if hunts and avaiblity were drastically reduced. I would think they would put up a fight and try to get a point of view across. I don't the the NR voice is being well represented, who is on our side Dept of tourism and commerce, they don't represent my feelings just my money.
 

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Limiting the amount of acres a guide can lease isn't an effective approach in my opinion. Let's say the max is 10K acres. Well, since it only costs $100 in ND to be a guide, well than Mrs. Guide can get a liscense....there's 10K more. How 'bout junior? 10K more. How about my cousin over in such and such county....etc...etc. For the Cannonball, every landowner can get a guides permit and they will never have a problem.

If they want to get the land they will find a way. I do think they should raise the outfitter liscense to $1000...and only have 200 permits. If you're a guide and you break the law...........SEE YA! Than you lose your permit and it's open to someone else. Than you have to wait in line for another to open up. The time spent waiting would probably make them think twice before breaking the law again.

It's tough though to try to get something done against the outfitters. They do a lot of lobbying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Chris do you understand though that just because you reduce NR numbers it doesn't mean your going to increase access. I quess what I am saying is this is knee jerk reaction. We have a access problem so we will slash NR lic's, looks good on paper. Have you read a Wildfowl Magazine in the last few years where an article doesn't use a guide? Very few.

These groups with only 1000 and 1500 memebers are powerful too. So why can't a small group of reasonable hunters be heard against the guides.
 

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cancarver,you are part of the problem.The area I grew up hunting is leased up,or bought outright by non-resident hunters.So I moved on two years ago,same thing happens in the new hunting grounds.Now I hunt an area not known for waterfowl hunting.I have no sympothy for people that are buying up or leasing land for hunting.Try hunting the south side of teawaukon,I believe that is Chris's old stomping grounds.All leased up by non-resident hunters!
 

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Limiting NR #'s meanst that the 10% I was talking about get's limited. Why would a guy from out of state lease 5000 acres if he wouldn't get a chance to hunt it???

You want to help? Have you and your hunting buddies call up some representatives here and say your sick of leasing and want more opportunities. But you see, you dont' think there's a problem. You really don't know how bad it is...you only spend your vacation here. What happened to you last fall in November was luck, don't expect that every year. We hunt 4 months in the fall and over a month in the spring. Our situation is getting bad.

Denial of what's taking place is taking an ignorant step in the wrong direction.

And yes Mallard, that was my old grounds. The land we used to hunt was leased up by a group from Wisconsing and the rest by a group from Illinois.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Hustad on 2002-04-09 12:52 ]
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I don't think it was luck one bit, I have hunt in Nov a couple of times and had great success both times not another sole around. I hunted in the Gackle area opening weekend sat, and part of sunday, heard other people shooting and driving around, but didn't have any over crowding or access to land. Sunday drove up to Lakota, got permission from a land owner that I have been getting permission from for 5 years and hunt WPA's in the area and saw very few other hunters, The motel was somewhat busy, didn't have any problem getting into the field though. Year before hunted Lakota are opening weekend, scouted on Friday, asked 5 land owners all five said yes, in additon to hunting WPA's in the area. Drove down to the woodworth area saw posted land but hunted succefully on WPA's didn't have plat map. There is a large amount of land in the Lakota area that has been leased up and posted recently do I like it of course not but the oppurtunity to still exists for me to have succesfull hunts. Let me point out that, a successful hunt to me doesn't mean limiting out. My most successful hunts are when I shot my gun a couple of times, got my drake can, and proceed to have hundreds of Cans land my decoys.
Your are right Chris I am only out there for 4-5 days at a time. My prespective may be different than yours of what is a problem and what isn't. I just don't agree with the way it is being approached and the solutions offered.

Thet 5000 acres lease maybe open until the are winners in the lottery, then those people will look for a lease, either way the land will be leased. Whether it is 1 year at a time of 5 years. Is there a survey of how much land is leased by NR's verus Guides and Residents from the ND cities?

Of course I would like to see no leased land in ND I would be more than happy to write your representatives regarding leased land and guides, whether I see it (my expereinces)as a problem in ND doesn't mean I think its right. At the same time I will fight for my right to hunt ND.

What is different that I think ND sportsman have a hard time understanding, is in 49 other states whether the land is posted or not, it is trespassing unless you have permission. Maybe that is why your seeing an increase in leased and posted land because if it is not leased or posted, anybody can go on. Solution, all land is considered posted in ND, everyone has to ask permission to hunt. This is a land rights issue, its hard for me to understand how I can own property and if I don't post it anyone can walk/hunt it. I think if I was a Farmer in ND I would be made as hell that the guy from fargo feels he has a right to hunt my property over a NR and wants to limit NR's numbers. As far as that farmer is concerned Fargo, Grand Forks Bismark Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee they are all outsiders.
 
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