[rogerw]

As long as I swab after every shot I do not have a problem with the fouling in the breech plug hole.

So, with swabbing the barrel there is no problem in the breech plug....

...The primer itself will foul the breech plug hole and create problems with hangfires. This is also true.

So, there IS a breech plug fouling problem whether you swab or not?

I suppose I still misunderstand one of those statements???

And on another thread, when BBJ was joking around, you claimed you KNOW your gun will fire 100 out of 100 times.

I don't understand that claim either, assuming from what you have said that your last 100 shots included misfires. Perhaps you will get a few in your next 100 shots too.

My claim: after 29 years of ML, I am still learning, all the time. I suppose that when I quit learning it will not be because I learned it all, rather it will be I have gone under. We are all still learning.

YHS,
rogerw

 

[Powerfisher]

Ya, your right. I havent even shot my rifle 100 times yet. I thought I apologised for that post?........... Pretty sure I did.

If I swab after each shot, no hangfires. Doesnt matter if its T7 or BH209.
My second day at the range I used the T7 Pellets, (swabbing after every shot, used a patch over a .45 brush) shot 16 consecutive shots and had no problems. I had a great time.
Next day at the range was with BH209, shot 12 shots without swabbing (because I didnt read the BH209 information good enough) and then I got a hangfire on my 13th shot. Swabbed with a wet patch and followed with a dry patch and my next shot was still a hangfire.
I removed the breech plug and noticed that it was extreamly fouled. Just swabbing the bore once , all the way down to the breech plug wasnt adequate enough to remove the thick layer of fouling that grew as I shot. So, I made the breech plug shiney, cleaned the flash hole, swabbed the bore, replaced the breech plug, loaded my rifle and was rewarded with the report of the ignition and sent the round down range. I swabbed after every shot from then on to prevent the fouling from building up to the point where it impedes the ignition from the 209 primer.
When I got home, I re-read the BH209 information and noticed that I had overlooked the paragraph that states:
" IMPORTANT: While Blackhorn 209 allows you to take multiple shots without swabbing the barrel, always remember that primers will foul the breech plug in any muzzleloader. To maintain consistancy, we recommend cleaning the primer fouling from the breech plug and breech plug flash hole if any deterioration in ignition or accuracy is observed."

With BH209, no swabbing necessary for accuracy or loading saboted projectiles. I agree with the manufactures literature.

With the use of BH209, since you dont have to swab after each shot for accuracy or seating purposes breech plug fouling will still happen due to the use of a 209 primer (if you dont swab, or maintain the breech plug). I agree with the manufactures literature.

I thought I made my last post clear but I guess I didnt. Different results with T7 VS BH209. Since your knowledge is much more vast than mine, I would think you would know that with T7 you should swab after every shot or else the fouling will build up and you wont be able to seat your projectile and you will get mis-fires. So swabbing after every shot at the range, if your using T7 or like, should be a given.
My results with BH209 (still learning) is that even though the manufactur states that swabbing isnt necessary (for accuracy and seating purposes) breech plug maintainance is needed to prevent misfiring due to the fouling that is left behind from the 209 primer that is needed to ignight the charge. So, if you still have to clean out the breech plug flash hole on a consistant basis by removing the breech plug, in my stlye of in-line rifle, there is not much advantage in using the BH209. I have to use a tool to remove the plug. Since it is almost 25% more expencive that T7, I dont know if the other benefits are worth the price.
I have a breech plug flash hole brush on order and will use it on my next day at the range. If it works, I will let you know. If all I have to do is stick the brush in the flash hole every 7 rounds or so to prevent hangfires and not have to remove the breech plug, then I will Ok with the higher price.
I thought this category was about BH209 and not my inaccurate statements that I made in the past.
Again, I apologise for the post that I put up a while back . I did exagerate.

Let me know if my spelling or grammer is off so I dont offend anybody.

There, that oughta do it.

 

[rogerw]

That settles it for me....

I have been known to make a wild claim once in a while, against my better judgement. It happens.....

I have a good friend who is singularly unimpressed with what you referred to as my "vast knowlege." I was trying to explain how a gun is a "single-stroke heat engine" much like other internal combustion machines.... Well, he smiled and got my eyeball attention and said "I guess those muzzleloaders are two-stoke engines."

I folded my hand.

YHS,
rogerw

 

[Powerfisher]

OK, you can be king of this hill. You just dont like to play nice with others. I have become as humble as I can be and you just dont want to let dead dogs lie. You can take YOUR FORUM and shove it down your smoke pole. Your last post made no sence to me and I am gonna find another sandbox to play in. I dont like to get bullied when I cant defend myself. I thought this forum was about sharing experiences and not bashing newbies. The BIG FINGER TO YOU SIR.

 

[barebackjack]

LIghten up boys.

I get a kick out of a new powder when they first come out. It seems every new powder claims "shoot all day without cleaning". Remember, their trying to sell you something.

Ive shot ALLLLLL the powders in ALLLLLLL their forms through both traditionals and in-lines.

I dont care what they (the manufacturer) say, your still gonna have to clean em every couple shots for peak performance. Sure, I can shoot real BP all day long without cleaning, but my groups open up after about half a dozen rounds. Peak performance needs to have a relatively clean bore no matter if its real BP, pyro, trip 7, shockeys, or this new stuff.

Swabbing a MLer and cleaning your flash channel every couple of shots is just part of the game, no matter the weapon or powder brand.

 

[Savage260]

WOW, I thought rogerw's post was accepting an apology from an earlier post.

Powerfisher, you definately need to lighten up. You are on here admitting you have very little experience, but get pi$$y when one of the experienced guys say some thing to you. As you said, "I dont like to get bullied when I cant defend myself", well then don't spout off.

You don't like what is said so you want to take your ball and go home. Well, maybe that is best until you can learn not to take every thing on here so seriously!

 

[Powerfisher]

Never once did I get the impression that rogerw understood anything I posted. All he did was disect my post and bring up a buried subject. It seemd as though he was going out of his way to take a poke at me. Snipe at me, I snipe back....... :sniper:
barebackjack, thanks for you input. I have come to the realization that what you have stated is true. No matter what type of propellant you use, you hafta maintain your breech plug and flash hole on a frequent, consistant basis. I dont mind that at all. 8)

 

[rogerw]

Powerfisher,

My apoligies for riling you. I was asking for clarification, not for a fight. I don't want to fight.

YHS,
rogerw

I dont care what they (the manufacturer) say, your still gonna have to clean em every couple shots ....

I agree, exactly. That was what I was trying to say; that since only Smokeless consumes itself almost totally into gas, and any powder that does that will have too too much energy content for the breech of a muzzleloader with typical breech designs, whether inline or sidelocked. Therefore the typical designs are limited to powders, that necessarily do produce significant fouling and for this reason it is unlikely that any new powder will not foul similar to BP. (excepting a breakthru in breechstrength like the Savage, or a smokeless powder that burns slowly enough to not blow up a typical ML breech).

YHS,
rogerw

barebackjack....what you have stated is true. No matter what type of propellant you use, you hafta maintain your breech plug and flash hole on a frequent, consistant basis.

PF,

It seems to me that after the smoke is cleared, you and I are in agreement on the main points.

YHS,
rogerw

 

[Powerfisher]

rogerw,
Yes we are. I have a short fuse in addition to many other short commings. Sometimes I cant get my brain to transmit a clear statement to my mouth and/or fingers. So, the next time I say somthin that just doesnt make any sence, please let me know and I will do my best to clarify it.

 

[rogerw]

PF,

No problema, senor. I am sure all will work out well with your ML shootin, as it already has. It is all good.

BTW, I was just at another site... I found a copy of an article embedded in a post, from the SingleShot Rifle Journal, entitled "Blackhorn 209: A Test-fire Report." In that article among other things the author concludes with two statements that jumped out at me:

1) "...Blackhorn 209 is certainly an excellent propellant." Basically he got good accuracy in 45-70 cartridges loaded with the stuff.

2) "To say that the non-corrosive properties of this product are somewhat exaggerated would severely understate the case."

He goes on to say that a couple days later the rifle he shot Bh209 in developed pitting in the barrel. He described it as "badly corroded and pitted its entire length."

He had it analyzed and it the analysis claims it is a single-base smokeless powder with Potassium Nitrate and Sulfur embedded in it. In other words it is a "duplex load" of smokeless and blackpowder (minus the charcoal).

He claims the Potassium Nitrate and the Sulfur form Sulphuric Acid after combustion and after soaking up some moisture from the air, ergo corrosion.

But, take heart, this is no different from BP combustion products (which also forms some sulphuric acid with moisture for the same reasons), or any other sub if I go by others experiences. The moral is the same one we have all recently and mutually preached to each other: you have to deal with fouling and you have to clean your gun.

Just can't believe the marketer's unusual claims without proof...

BTW, Bill Knight (a retired chemist, probably the world's foremost living expert on BP and subs) noted in a post today that Bh209 turns out to be the same recipe as listed in "The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives," by Tenny L. Davis, written in 1941. There is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1, verse 9).

BTW, since this stuff is just a mixture of basically smokeless nitrocellulose along with some BP, you might wonder why it is so danged expensive!

(I also am a bit mystified why an experienced shooter of BP, etc, like this author would not have cleaned that gun....must have been a part of his "experiment" on purpose. I hate to see nice guns abused like that!)

YHS,
rogerw

edit -btw, the author does make clear that Bh209 made less volume of fouling in his barrel than BP.

 

[rogerw]

Thought ya'll might like to see this...if it worked you will see the jpeg images of the Blackhorn209 article below. I hope you can copy them to your computer and view or print them if you wish.

YHS,
rogerw

 

[Powerfisher]

I bit big on the hype. Nice info. Im still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to MLing. Now really confused to boot. The more I learn, the less I want to know. So far I havent left the range before I have pulled the plug and gave everything a once over. Now I know I wont. If I cant reach a definite conclusion "In favor of BH09" then I will shoot T7 I spose. Ima simple man and dont really need any more confusion in my already full head. Otherwise I may have to purg some necessary information....like my address or age or somthing.... ...So......do I have to shoot FFg or can I shoot FFFg? I know a little about the burn ratio but is there a problem with the power behind it? can the weapon take the faster burning powder? 8)

 

[rogerw]

I bit big on the hype. Nice info. Im still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to MLing. Now really confused to boot.

I wouldn't read more into that article than it says.... and it says that Bh209 is an excellent propellant with less fouling volume than BP or other subs, but is otherwise pretty much like BP which is one of the ingredients.

If you like it, use it.

But the claim of folks like myself is: BP has been adapted well to MLs for hundreds of years; anything that also adapts well to MLs (with typical breech designs) is likely to be a lot like BP. [edit] Oh yeah, and it make take a few decades of experience to prove to us that something new is better....

[edit] oh, yeah, and folks like me are about 1/10 of the crowd....most folks shoot BP subs.....

YHS,
rogerw

btw, at my age I have been purging important information for years.....like my cellphone number, wife's birthday, ouch!

 

[Savage260]

That is some interesting info. The last time I shot my ML was on a very cold day in Dec. I then put it in my warm truck and it had condensation on it when I brought it in the house. As is printed on the label on the bottle, I didn't clean it for about 3 days. I wonder what kind of damage has been done to my barrel?!?!? Do I need a bore scope to see if it is messed up or would the pitting be visible to the naked eye?

 

[barebackjack]

I bit big on the hype. Nice info. Im still a bit wet behind the ears when it comes to MLing. Now really confused to boot. The more I learn, the less I want to know. So far I havent left the range before I have pulled the plug and gave everything a once over. Now I know I wont. If I cant reach a definite conclusion "In favor of BH09" then I will shoot T7 I spose. Ima simple man and dont really need any more confusion in my already full head. Otherwise I may have to purg some necessary information....like my address or age or somthing.... ...So......do I have to shoot FFg or can I shoot FFFg? I know a little about the burn ratio but is there a problem with the power behind it? can the weapon take the faster burning powder? 8)

I think your just reading to much into it. First off, NEVER believe what the manufacturers say about non-smokeless powders. Their all gonna be dirty compared to smokeless powder, their all gonna need to be cleaned well at the end of a shooting session. The residue of all these powders is hygroscopic, meaning they attract moisture. So the more humid it is, the more important a timely cleaning is after your done shooting.

Pick a powder, a couple bullet types you might want to hunt with. Hit the range, and shoot it. Change one factor at a time until you hit on something that shoots well.

When im working up a load, I like to really clean well in-between shots. I do this because, when im out hunting, my first shot is the most important, so I want a load that shoots well on a clean bore.

Mostly just get out and shoot. Youll learn the processes, learn the rifle. Theres many more "details" to MLing than using centerfire weapons.

Wait till you get your first "dry ball".........you always realize it at the worst time. When you bottom that bullet down in the breech and realize the ramrod just went down the barrel a little farther than normal....DOH! Forgot the powder.

 

[barebackjack]

Do I need a bore scope to see if it is messed up or would the pitting be visible to the naked eye?

If its got a removable breech plug, id just pop it off and look through it while pointing it at a light. Minor pitting will be tough to see and generally doesnt greatly affect accuracy. It takes some significant damage to REALLY affect accuracy.

The fact that its part real BP would have me a little concerned though. Sulfur residue is hard on metal.

 

[Savage260]

I just popped out the plug and didn't see any thing out of the ordinary. I ran a few Hopped up patches and they came out clean, so I don't think there is too much problem. No damage at best, very minor pitting at worst.

 

[rogerw]

I just popped out the plug and didn't see any thing out of the ordinary. I ran a few Hopped up patches and they came out clean, so I don't think there is too much problem. No damage at best, very minor pitting at worst.

It is probably significant that the author of that article was talking about the steel barrel of an original 19th century gun (doh! what an idiot! I can't believe he did that!). He mentions that the corrosion he got experimenting on modern steel of a sawblade was significantly less. Also, if you happen to have a stainless barrel like a lot of inlines do now, you probably have much more resistance to the problem, although stainless can be stained, and it can rust and pit.

All I read into that article is that, like BP, it must be cleaned. The contrast is with the advertising hype, not with the normal expectations based on BP or other subs.

YHS,
rogerw

 

[Savage260]

rogerw, thanks for the info. I didn't take the time to read much of the article, just kinda skimmed over a bit. Wouldn't have been so worried had I actually taken the time.

 

[maximini14]

I finally bought some bh209 and made it to the range this past weekend to give it a try.

I WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED!

Using a TC 50 cal Omega, and 250 gr bonded Shockwave superglide bullets,120 grs BH 209. This combination was all over the place.

Was shooting from a Caldwell Lead Sled at 100 yds, and got 10" groups- There was ease of multiple loading shots with little fouling, but accuracy was just not there for me, went thru 2 boxes (15 rnds) trying to get this thing to shoot.

Finally, left my partner at the range and made a quick run to Walmart, bought some T7 pellets, regular 250 gr TC Shockwave bullets (yellow tips w/ black sabot) and zoomed back to the range.

I wiped bore between each shot using T17 patches to simulate a cold clean barrel as when under hunting conditions.

5 rounds later- my Omega had posted a 1 1/2 group- done deal!!!

Certainly can't recommend BH209 with the 250 gr Bonded TC bullet.

I suspect it may be the difference in the sabot, or perhaps in the bonded bullet, but I don't have the time to figure it out.

I'll stick with what works, 3 pellets Triple 7, standard 250gr TC Shockwave bullet and Winchester ML 209 primers- just have to deal with the messy old cleanup after shooting- that would be cleaning up the deer blood and hair out of my truck.