North Dakota Fishing and Hunting Forum banner
1 - 20 of 43 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This early in the season am I really going to see a return on investment for spending the extra $16.50 per case on 250 more FPS?

Win Xpert Steel 3" 1 1/4oz Size BB 1300 FPS $33.45/case

Win Xpert Steel Hi Velocity 3" 1 1/8oz Size BB 1550 FPS $49.99/case

What are the opinions of those wiser than I? Feel free to give other suggestions.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,506 Posts
See the "kent fasteel" thread on the duck hunting page. Lots of differing opinions on the subject of speed and payload. Take the tidbits from that thread and then do some patterning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
You'll probably be able to find the answer to your question at the pattern board. If they pattern equally well out to your normal shooting distance, I would spend the extra $1.65 per box for the increased velocity. Note that you will have about 8 extra pellets in the 1 1/4 oz load (size BB) if you go for the lower velocity. The Xpert shells had a reputation for shot that was inconsistent in size and roundness when they first came out.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,676 Posts
Because of the spherical shape of shot which is ballistically inefficient there is very little difference in velocity beyond 40 yards or so. Inside forty yards It probably wouldn't matter much so I would get the slower stuff it will probalbly pattern better. There are lots of good books on the subject. " Shotgunning the art and science " by Bob Brister is the best one I"ve read.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,481 Posts
Man...you are buying fast loads for 4.99 per box???

There is a difference when the speed is over 100 feet per second.At ranges under 40 yards they will go clean through the bird.That shock is what brings them down if you don't break a wing.Always take the lighter, faster loads,especially at that price.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Qwack
Patterns are indeed about equal. My past experience is with small snows down south and never really felt the need for a fast load until late in the season with wary birds. I am now weighing the need to use those here early in the season with larger birds. (Decoying birds within 35 yards) On one hand I would hate to go with the heavy/slow load and end up with a bunch of crippled birds....on the other hand I would hate to waste money on the light/fast load when it isnt needed. Thanks for your input!

Ken
Grand Forks Cabela's 79.99 per case - $30.00 rebate from Winchester.

Thanks
J.J.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,506 Posts
Okay you speed guys, you're (a) not familiar with the Roster/CONSEP data, including thousands of nacropsied birds to test for among other things lethal pellet penetrations, or (b) you just don't buy it. If (b), what supports your quest for speed other than personal anechdotal experiences afield.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
The fact that I have to know what I am talking about when somebody come into the store and asks me what steel they should be shooting for geese, as well as the fact that I have to be up to date on new loads and performance (through Federal, Winchester, Kent, etc.) for the job. As well as the fact that I have done some field testing on my own. If those three reasons arent enough, I really don't know what would be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Does it really matter what a guy shoots, if he is decoying. I dont worry about the speed too much. Really havent wounded any birds either, get them in close for the clean kill.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
373 Posts
Birds around town are getting shot to hell and are not decoying very well. 40 yard shots are common the last 2 hunts. Have only had two geese land in the dekes today. Glad I am shooting heavy Loads. 3 1/2 BB.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,676 Posts
Type in and look at "metro gun" on your search engine. Heavy pellets at very slow speed kill fine. pellet weight is the most critcal issue. I know its not a direct answer to the question but it is interesting. And they are killing geese with very slow ( relatively speaking ) shot speed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
Dan,

I have read Roster's article but I have not been to his seminar. I have heard some second hand info about what he says at the seminar. The biggest problem I have with his thoughts about velocity--he urges everyone to not take shots beyond 30 yds. Brezny took big geese using his Metro gunning system and sub-sonic loads when they were within 30 yds (if I remember correctly). But, in reality, how many hunters NEVER take a shot beyond 30 yds? I would guess approx 1-5%. If 100% of your shots are less than 30 yds, by all means, don't worry about the velocity.

I know Roster says some stuff about the fast stuff slowing down faster and making no difference beyond 40 yds but there are plenty of ballistic experts (guys a lot smarter than me) who disagree with him.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,506 Posts
If you always, ALWAYS shoot at 30 yards or less, anything but the obscenely light/fast payload shells will probably be just fine. If you ever stretch, even on follow ups, a trip to the patterning board at longer ranges will scare the snot out of you with the faster/lighter steel loads.

And I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I tend to place more stock in thorough, empiracal data than the maketing hoopla of those who invented the push towards speed and the others who saw market share slide and jumped on the band wagon.

Roster has no axe to grind with speed. All of the major mfgs still offer a heavier/slower load, but they don't get much aisle space in the retailers this day because of the speed who-ha. If the lighter/faster stuff, from the very same mfgs, was as or more lethal, there's no reason he wouldn't push it. Based upon his comprehensive data, it is not.

It's all about being at or above about 1300 fps and putting the right number of holes with the right shot size in a 30' circle on paper at the FARTHEST distance you'll ever shoot. If you can do that with 200-250 fps faster at the barrel and 6-8 fps faster at 40 yards and it makes you feel better and a more confident shooter, have at 'er. If you can't, you are being less lethal than you should be. The pattern board never lies.

p.s. "40 yards" is a really relative thing to most shooters. One of Roster's exercises is to estimate distances of 6 full body flying Canada decoys, anywhere from 20-65 yards. In 20,000 participants, he's had 2 that guessed +/- 3 yards on all 6. Almost everyone underestimates the distances, and the people that tend to hit his seminars are the ones that consider themselves pretty avid shooters/hunters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
Now you are sounding like me :D In my original post, I said, that if they pattern the same, use the faster load. You are right that the patterns need to be good at max shooting distance, not just "normal shooting" distance. By all means, patterns are more important than speed. But if you can have both, why not?

I don't know who did the tests but there are some "maximum effective yardage" ballistic tables for steel shot that are commonly available at the reloader's forum on Waterfowlers.com Maybe some drunk teenage kid put them together, but I believe that they have been accepted by many of the ballistic types that post there. They don't list max range for 1300 FPS but they do for 1450 through 1800 FPS. The difference appears to be approx another 3 yds for each 150 FPS increase in muzzle velocity. So, in theory, the increased effective yardage between a 1300 FPS load and a 1550 load could be around 5 yds. If we all knew exactly what yardage we were shooting at, and if we all were disciplined enough to not shoot beyond our effective range, than that 5 yd extension would be meaningless. But, as Roster has proven, most people can't reliably estimate what range they are shooting at (I readily admit that I'm not very good at it either). That being the case, an extra 5 yds effective range could save a lot of cripples (given that they deliver good patterns at the max range). Also, how many times do you open up on a flock at nice, close range but someone butt shoots a bird and everyone empties their gun trying to finish him off as he gets farther and farther away? Nice to have a well patterned, max yardage load in that scenario too.

Most of the handloaders of steel shot are just as worried about patterns as they are velocity. I patterned a bunch of 1550 FPS 10 gauge hand loads out to 50 yds this summer. I got horrible patterns with my Browning factory choke. I bought a Briley extended IM tube and I was very impressed with all patterns from 20 to 50 yds with both #1s and BBBs.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,506 Posts
There's only so much room in the shell, and powder advancements have not gotten to the point where you can have both heavy and fast. The payload/speed tradeoff that must be made seems a little more ambigous depending on whether the stuff above 1300 fps really drains most of its speed very quickly or not.

To a point - 5 pellets in a 30 inch circle traveling Mach 1 is not a "lethal" load. It's still about achieving a certain pellet count in the 30 inch circle so you can have assurances that the load, on average, will put 1-2 (2-3 in pheasants) pellets into a part of the body that will disable the bird, not just into some part of the bird. For large geese, 50-55 pellets in a 30 inch circle represents the required count/density.

This speed degredation thing doesn't seem like it should be subject to much dispute. While I suppose it could be replicated through application of physics, the right equipment and some basic testing should be pretty definative. Someone must have sone it. Anybody have some info they can post on such conducted tests?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
With a 10 gauge, 1.5 oz load, 1550 FPS muzzle velocity, I get 90 #1 pellets in a 30 inch circle at 50 yds and 65 BBB pellets. I know some guys say #s of pellets in the circle is all that matters but I'm not satisfied unless the pattern is well distributed across that 30" circle too.

For 12 gauge ducks loads, there are 116 #1 pellets in a 1 1/8 oz load and 142 #2s. It's not too hard to get 55 in a 30 inch circle at 50 yds, even at 1500+ fps. The difference in pellet counts in the original question (size BB at 1 1/8 1550 FPS or 1 1/4 1300 FPS) is 8 pellets--probably not enough to make or break a pattern.

I haven't been on waterfowler.com much lately but they have some smart guys in the reloading forum (isn't Ned a nuclear physicist? (I can't even spell it!)). He's not the only 50lb head there and they seem to agree that velocity (along with pattern) makes a big difference. I'm sure you could find plenty of smart guys on both sides of the issue.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,676 Posts
One more very critical variable is shotstring length. Your patterning board is only acurrate if the goose is stationary. Shotstrings can easily exceed 15 feet in length especially in over square loads. Not only is speed highly overrated but so are very large loads. The 10 guage does help but when the feds mandated steel shot they should of also allowed the guage restriction to go to 8 guage like europe. You need a big tube to shoot large payloads effectively.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
373 Posts
spring snows...

Browning gold 10 gauge-semi auto with Compn Choke...3 1/2 BBB-Winchester Supremes, with my custom 10 round hopper feed. Lets just say my shot string can knock down... Quite a few right Dean? :sniper: :beer:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,506 Posts
Qwack, you've definetly got more room to play with on balancing payload and speed with a 10. I shoot only a 12 for all waterfowl.

On geese, I tested a bunch of 1500'ish 1 3/8 3.5 BBB's through several different choke constrictions, including several in between the typical constriction jumps. Couldn't make the 55. Got pretty close with the Federals, which I think had mostly to do with the quality of steel that particular Federal sku held as compared to the other mfgs tested that day. Even within single mfgs, their steel greatly vairies in quality among their different shell lines - roundness and smoothness. Pretty convinced the only way I will ever make 55 BBB's at 60 yards is with a 1 9/16 load, which is available by several of the mfgs at 1300 fps, just a little harder to find.

On ducks, their smaller vitals dictate that required counts/densities becomes 80 or 85 w/in the 30 for larger ducks and even higher for medium and small ducks. We found this fairly easy to achieve w/ 2's at 60 yards w/ 1 1/4 - just had to mess w/ choke a little bit. I think it'd take some serious tweaking to get there w/ 1 1/8 2's, but it could be done. Don't think you could get there with 1 1/8 1's.

On all of this stuff, what's really hard a 60 yards gets pretty easy at 30. We've been doing all our testing at extreme ranges, however, because we want to know we're throwing the kind of patterns that will achieve lethality at all ranges (at least if I shoot straight). It follows that if you can meet pellet counts at 60, you'll have an ultra dense pattern at 30. I'd rather "stone" 10, even if it means beating them up a little, than have 1 sail a half mile into the abyss.

Here are the variables I've identified so far that affect and create "pattern":

1. Payload - easier to fill the 30 with more weight.
2. shot size - pattern densities are always easier to achieve when using smaller shot as you get more of them in the same weight payload. But you can't bring a knife to a gun fight - not productive to shoot undersized shot just to make the pellet counts - won't get the penetration.
3. Speed - generally slower produces denser patterns, more so with lead because of deformation. With steel, shot imperfections are magnified with speed and pattern widens. But again there are diminishing marginal returns; you don't drop down to 600 fps just because it really fills the 30 - got to have lethal energy.
4. shot quality - shot is not created equal, even within the same mfg. rounder and harder shot will fly truer and produce tighter patterns. So, jsut because you find a Federal or any other 1 1/4 that fits the bill, the other 2 offerings a 1 1/4 may not if the steel is different, which it often is.
5. choke constriction - da
6. choke quality/configuration. Those tubes with a parallel section at the muzzle - preferably as long as the shot charge - perform better.
7. shot distance - because of the cone pattern of any shot string, density gets tougher and tougher as range increases.

Several of these factors work against each other when trying to optimize pattern and remain within the CONSEP constraints about appropriate shot size, pattern densities and other lethality factors. It's actualy hard, challenging and fun to try and make it all work out to have one load for all-around goose shooting and one for all-around duck shooting.
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
Top