10mm vs 45 auto

by **Militant_Tiger** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:03 pm

I have been doing some research on pistols as of late to further my knowledge of firearms. I have seen some pretty convincing information showing the 10mm as much faster with a reasonably close bullet weight. If this is true, why hasnt the 10mm made the 45 auto extinct?

by **mr.trooper** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:43 pm

Because the 10mm auto has alot worse kick than a .45 acp, and is similar in balisticaly to the .41 remington magnum. that means that woman and girly men dont like it cuz they cant handle it., AND that particular area was already covered by the .357mag +P, and the .41 mag.

Basiclay, because that area of cartridges was already covered, and it has fairly high recoil, it didnt sell verry well,

To my knowledge, the 10mm is the only auto cartridge ( besides the extinct 44 automag and the over-priced 50 Action Express) that is viable for defence agains large game like bear.

by **OneShotOneKill** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:31 am

Nothing can make the 45 ACP extinct! It is still a proven round capable of deadly results. The 10mm Auto outperforms the 45 ACP, because it operates at much higher chamber pressure, and the 40 S&W isn’t far behind. I used to own a Glock Model 20, but I didn’t have a need for a semi-auto pistol. I do like the performance of the 10mm Auto cartridge. I want to purchase a S&W Model 610, because you can shoot 10mm Auto and 40 S&W cartridges in this revolver. What I really want to find is a used Ruger Blackhawk convertible in 38-40 Winchester with a 10mm Auto cylinder. I currently own two Ruger Blackhawk convertibles, on in 357 Magnum/38 Special with a 9mm Luger cylinder and one in 45 Colt with a 45 ACP cylinder.

The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the 10mm Auto is 37,500 P.S.I.
The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .40 S&W is 35,000 P.S.I.
The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .45 ACP +P is 23,000 P.S.I.
The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .45 ACP is 21,000 P.S.I.

The 10mm Auto provides a hand gunner with the power of a .357 Magnum revolver with the increased magazine capacity and rapid reload capability of an automatic pistol.
10mm AUTO.

Guns chambered for the .40 S&W combine high-capacity magazines with acceptable stopping power. It is slightly less powerful than the 10mm Auto — which reduces the probability of over-penetration — but is considerably easier to control during rapid fire. As a result of testing to optimize terminal ballistics on the 10mm Auto, the FBI adopted a reduced power loading. Smith & Wesson subsequently offered a cartridge with a similar power level chambered in a pistol with a high-capacity magazine. In an amazingly short period, the .40 S&W has gained wide acceptance throughout the U.S. in the law enforcement field. The .40 S&W is an easy cartridge to load and gives excellent.

Ah, Don’t forget the 10mm Magnum! 10mm MAGNUM, This proprietary cartridge was developed for Irwindale Arms, Inc. for use in their auto loading pistol. The 10mm Magnum could be thought of as a rimless .401 Power Mag, if anyone should happen to remember Herter’s proprietary revolver and cartridge. Both cartridges approximate the .41 Magnum in power. This cartridge is a lengthened 10mm Auto and is loaded to pressure levels similar to the .44 Magnum for use in the IAI handguns.
10mm MAGNUM

by **agrotom** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am

Nothing will replace the .45 ACP. :soapbox:

Everybody tries to replace it ( eg. US Gov. var. police depts. ) and they always go back! The .45 RULES. :beer:

by **mr.trooper** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:38 am

agreed. The .45 ACP is far supperior to other auto cartriges.

BTW...OSOK, you must be a very rich man with alot of time on your hands. Eveorytime i see you post you seem to talk about another Expencive gun, like a glock, that you either own or claim to have owned. Are you shure about your info one the 10mm Auto? if i remember correctly, there is more that a little difference betweene the .40 and the 10mm....

by **OneShotOneKill** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:11 am

I agree the 45 ACP will never be replaced! The 45 ACP is superior to other auto cartridges, but not all others! Take a close look at the 50 A.E or 50 GI!

44 Auto Mag still lives!
http://www.44automag.com/main.htm
http://www.44automag.com/prep/process.htm

The 40 S&W is doing a great job replacing the 9mm Luger, but unfortunately it to will never die!

mr.trooper,

I am always sure of my facts! The 10mm Auto uses a large pistol primer and the 40 S&W uses a small pistol primer! The same reloading dies are used for both cartridges including the 10mm Magnum! They all use the same bullets!

mr.trooper, don’t take my word for it! Why don’t you tell us all about the differences pertaining to the 10mm Auto and 40 S&W!

Freedom Arms Model 83 6”, 454 Casull/45 Colt/45 ACP, $2,000
Glock Model 20, $490
Ruger Blackhawk Convertible in 45 Colt/45 ACP, $400
Ruger Blackhawk Convertible in 357 Magnum/38 Special/9mm Luger, $400
Thompson Center Encore with 10” 44 Magnum barrel, $350
T/C Encore, 12” 454 Casull barrel, $185
T/C Encore, 10” 7mm-08 Remington barrel, $170
Ruger Single Six, 22 LR/22WMR, $200
Properly managing my finances, $Priceless!

by **Whelen35** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:38 am

I think the 40 S&W has gained such a fast and well deserved acceptance is because it develops very simular power to the 45acp, while being able to fit in a package not over sized and yet higher capasity of ammo simmular to the 9mm. The only 10mm that I have shot was in the colt delta. Too me, it was just enough recoil that fast self defence type shooting would be hindered. Personally, the 45acp loaded with 200gr bullets and the 40 S&W with 180's feel about the same to me, very simular to a +p 147gr 9mm in a light gun. When all of the three are loaded with the "best performing bullet weights, there is noticeable differance in recoil. 9mm with 115gr bullets will be the lightest in felt recoil, the 40 with 180's, and the 45acp with 230's on the top. The 9mm would not be my choice for winter defence due to lack of penatration of winter clothing, the 40 is a comprimise and would be OK, but to me the 45acp is still the top. With 230gr bullets it will get to what you are wanting to hit, and yet can be handled fast enough for quick follow up shots if needed. The 10mm has more power, but the price offast follow up shots makes it not as good of a choice. And, if you shoot lighter 165's or reduced power loads you have the 40 S&W again but without the high capasity.

by **agrotom** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:20 am

I too believe that the .40 S&W far superior to the 9 mm. But nothing will beat the old slab sides. :beer:

by **mr.trooper** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:32 am

As per ususal, ask a question in a polite mannor and the monkey starts holering and jumping up and down....

"I am always sure of my facts!"--When ( if ever ) you make a post containing facts. I am quite aware that they use the same calibre bullets. Whats next? are you guna tell me that 9mm is .38 calibre or .357 bore? Honestly, i dont need a child who cuts and pastes answers ( AKA, doesnt know them on his own) to tell me such basic facts.

If you will notice, I SAID THAT I WASNT SHURE, AS I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE 10MM. i asked you to be shure of your facts, as i have no acess to ballistcs charts from my current location, as indicated by the question mark. I also left my line about thinking the 10mm being stronger as an incomplete though, Denoted by the exended periods. i would expect someone with even an 8'th grade grasp of English to realize this.

This all being said, i would still prefer the 10mm to the 40.( EVEN THOUGH THIS THREAD IS ABOUT 10MM VS. .45 ACP, SEING AS YOU HAVE GOTEN US OFF TOPIC.)

And where did you get the line about the .45 GAP? i just dont see how a shorted cartridge fireing the same bullet with less phisical space for powder can produce a more powerfull bullet, unless the GAP has signnificantly hight Cup Pressures.

by **mr.trooper** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:41 pm

While im here i may as well post part of my collection, as it is, in my oppinion, more cost-effective, AND complete than the one mentined above.

Savage .223 bolt action ~250
SKS 7.62x39 < $120
Hi-Point .45acp ~$150
Hi-point 9mm ~$150
Ruger 10/22 magnum With 17.hmr barrel < $450
Enfield No.4 MKII ~ $75
Sweedish M38 ~ $150
Remington 700 .308 ~ $600
Browning 12ga. Stalker ~ $600
3" S&W .357 Magnum < 200
Ruger Blackhawk .454 - $450

Thats around $3,200 as appose to almost $ 4,200. Abought $1,000 less, That would give you 4 handguns, an all-purpose shotgun, and 6 rifles, alowing you to use:

1) .223
2) 7.62X39 Soviet
3) .45 ACP
4) 9mm luger/parabellum
5) .22 magnum ( as well as .22 short, .22long, and .22long rifle as a strait plull bolt action)
6) .303 British
7) 6.5x55 Swedish
8 ) .308 winchester
9) 2 3/4 & 3" 12ga shells
10) .38 special
11) .357 Magnum
12) .44 magnum
13) .44 special

youv got a gun for eveorything, and even the most basic wallmart will have ammo for at least 2 handguns( 9mm & .357/.38 ), 2 rifles ( most all stores iv seen carry .223 & 7.62), and the shotgun (with various loads to chose from.).Not to mention even a small town hardware store will have the 12 ga., and probably 38 or .357

And OSOK....the 50 AE, and 50 GI are NOT supperior to the .45 ACP. the 50 AE may be more powerfull, but so what? what does it mater if you can only get off 1 shot eveory 2 seconds due to recoil? and for your information, the 50 GI may fire a larger bullet, but it also pushes it significantly slower, yielding the same amount on force on impact ( accept with a smidgeon less penetration due to its larger size and slower speed.) If thats what you consider supperior, then why dont we all use the .577 carbine? its a rimed rifle cartridge that fires a 57 calibre bullet out of a 2" strait brass case.....at around 800 FPS. why? because better cartridges were invented. biger bore doesnt mean more powerfull.

by **Militant_Tiger** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:30 pm

"5) .22 magnum ( as well as .22 short, .22long, and .22long rifle as a strait plull bolt action)"

which one can do this?

by **mr.trooper** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:50 pm

a 10/22 MAGNUM can fire the smaller .22 cartridges as a single shot. they dont have enough power to eject, so you have to re-cycle the bolt by hand.

Now admitadly its not good for your gun, but you can do it in a emergecy ( still not recomended )

by **OneShotOneKill** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:55 am

The 10mm Auto will always outperform the 45 ACP with the same weight bullet and the 40 S&W isn’t far behind!

mr.trooper,

This a handgun forum, so I only listed my handguns! I am unable to list my extensive collection of long guns due to its quantity.

Please define superior!

I am confused, you have a Ruger Blackhawk in .454 for $450?

Please continue your research you have much more to learn , but I will be more than happy to help you through the really tough areas!

The 357 Maximum, 357 Magnum, 38 Special all use .357” bullets.
The 9mm Luger & 357 Sig uses .355” bullets!

Compare and learn:
Hodgdon loading data for 45 ACP, 45 GAP, 10mm Auto & 40 S&W!
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45acp.php
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45glockauto.php
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/10mmauto.php
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/40sw.php

45 GAP
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/45gap.html

460 Rowland
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/460rowland.php

45 Winchester Magnum
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45winmag.php

50 GI
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/50_gi.htm

50 AE
http://www.chuckhawks.com/50AE.htm
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/50actexp.php

by **mr.trooper** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:43 pm

Yup, those 3- 1,000ths, of an inch make so much difference in the diameter its like night and day. OSOK, you should know that the only practical difference between the two types is the weights. The loads for the revolver cartridges are naturally a heavier bullet.

I am sorry, but I just don’t like rare and expensive bullets. You will notice that the web page for the 50GI states that the cartridge has to be hot-loaded to surpass the 45ACP factory ammo (230gr moving at about 850fps for factory 45acp, versus 300gr moving at 900 fps).

As I have stated before, I am behind a very heavy fire-wall that blocks virtually all “weapons” sights. Even Airsoft and paintball sights are blocked. As such, I am unable to go to those sights (the one for the 50GI miraculously made it through).

I don’t remember as I don’t have any of my charts with me (nor can I access any) to look the information up. If I remember, you can hand-load the 45ACP 230gr Ball to about 1100 fps. So, when they are both hand loaded, you have a 230gr moving at 1100fps Vs. a 300gr moving at 900fps. That doesn’t sound like much of an advantage at all, as when it comes to kinetic energy (foot pounds on impact) simple physics tells us that velocity is more important to a higher outcome than weight (obviously if one object is much heavier there is a discrepancy, but with 2 objects as close in weight as these two, velocity is still the more important factor.)

Anyway, in the end the 50GI really is just a larger bore replacement for the 45acp. That’s all fine and dandy, but at the moment (9 and I suspect for a long time to come) the .45acp does the same thing, and is cheaper. That’s my definition of Superior in this case.

Also OSOK, I simply listed a practical firearms list (including handguns as this is indeed a handgun forum) for the average Joe who wants to own a variety of guns without going into un-payable debt. I own more firearms that I listed (multiples of many of the items, plus others I won’t tell you that I have, simply because it’s none of your business.)

No I know rare oddball cartridges are your cup-O-Tea, but the rest of us don’t have that kind of time to devote to owning and reloading for every caliber ever made in the last 150 years.

And yes, a Blackhawk in 454 Cassull(sp?) can be had for $450. Iv seen like new condition blackawks go for that much on Gun Broker.

by **OneShotOneKill** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:12 am

mr.trooper,

Yes .003” makes a world of difference! You are talking about two entirely different calibers and bullet designs. Would you use .357” bullets in the 357 Sig?

Ruger doesn’t make a Blackhawk in 454 Casull! Ruger makes a Super Redhawk in 454 Casull which is a double action revolver not single action like the Blackhawk!

I am not aware of any safe hand loading practices that are able to achieve 1100 fps in a 45 ACP using 230gr jacketed bullets?

by **mr.trooper** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:38 pm

OSOK, as I have already stated, I know you can’t use a .357 Mag bullet in a .357 sig but the REASON you can’t isn't the diameter, its the fact that the revolver bullets are too long and heavy to get any kind of a useful load. you really need to actually read others posts before you spout off, because once again you argue the wrong point.

Redhawk /Blackhawk, please forgive me. The names are so different! I don’t know how I got the two confused!

The 1100 was just a rough estimate. I read in a handgun magazine that you cold safely load a 230gr to over 1,000fps, like 1025. I don’t remember, as that was a wile ago. I also stated above that I wasn’t sure of these measurements

DONT GET ME WRONG! i LOVE te idea of the 50GI, and wouldnt hesitate to get one! the 300gr at 900fps is still a knock-out round, and that 50 cal bore just looks verry intimidating! i just dont think the scarcity of the ammunition, and the nesessity of handloading justifies it as a valid replacement for the vennerable 45acp.

by **OneShotOneKill** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:14 am

I do love the 45 ACP cartridge, this I why I have it for two of my revolvers. I own a Ruger Blackhawk convertible in 45 Colt and it also has a 45 ACP cylinder, plus my new Freedom Arms Model 83 454 Casull I also purchased two extra cylinders for it, 45 Colt and the other in 45 ACP.

FREEDOM ARMS TRIPLE THREAT PACKIN' PISTOL
When I clocked it from the four and three-quarter inch barrel of the .45 ACP- cylindered .454, the Oehler Model 35P registered one thousand four hundred and twenty three feet.
That is 1,423 feet per second! In .45 ACP brass!
http://www.sixguns.com/range/Fattpp.htm

mr.trooper,

NO, you cannot use a .357” bullet in a 357 Sig because the bullet diameter is too large! If you take an.357” bullet and loading it into a 357 Sig case this would bulge the case and raise pressures to an unsafe level, plus probably destroy the gun and seriously injure yourself and bystanders, but it probably wouldn’t even chamber! The 357 Sig uses 9mm bullets which are .355”

A 110gr .357” bullet compared to a 147gr .355” would come out shorter, so it’s not that the bullet is too long it’s too big of caliber!

by **mr.trooper** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:56 am

Again OSOK, Either way it can’t be used, for either reason. IV said that many times now. Neither I, nor anyone else will try it, for whichever reason that you deem the biggest. It doesn’t matter, as neither bullet will do well in either gun. Again, this has been my position all along, and I have stated that several times. Please don’t post about that again, it’s getting old, and is of topic anyway.

Back on topic:

If you loaded the bullet for a 40 S&W into a 10mm auto cartridge, and loaded it to the maximum safe pressure of 37,000 cup I would think the 10mm would be better if it can safely increase the pressure by 6%. That’s probably as good or better of an improvement as those AI cartridges your always pushing! :lol:

Just having some fun with you. I would like to get a 10mm auto sometime. Probably a Delta Elite.

by **Plainsman** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:00 pm

Mr. Trooper

I screwed up bad a couple years ago. A deputy sheriff would have sold me his Colt Delta Elite (10mm) with ten clips for $500. It was one of the most accurate semi auto center fire handguns that I have ever fired. I purchased a Colt 1911, and was lucky to keep it in a paper plate at 25 yards. I switched to a Kimber now. I can’t remember who asked (I think it was you) about loading the 45ACP to 1100fps with a 230 gr. There is a company that sells a ramped barrel with full chamber support for the cartridge and a 26 lb double spring conversion kit for $200. They claim the 230gr can be loaded to 1200fps with that conversion. I have been thinking about buying a ramped barrel and see what kind of velocity I can safely obtain with 24lb Wolf spring.

by **mr.trooper** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:57 pm

Now that sounds like a kicker! i dont know if i would try 1200fps, but the ramped barrel, and double spring sound sweet. i may try that on my parker .45 some day, and then just shoot factory ammo out of the Hi-point. Thanks plains! If the claim of 1200 fps is true, then the .45acp could beat a hot-loaded 50GI by 6,000 grains of impact energy...however much that is in pounds. IMAGINE IF SUCH CONVERSIONS WERE AVALIBLE FOR THE 50GI! if the device could scale up the loading pressure to a proportional ammount, you could put 486,000 grains to the target on impact. thats one dead critter.

Anyone know how many grains (bullet weight) are in a pound? or a kilogram?

by **GunRunner** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:45 pm

1 troy or apothecaries' pound = 5,760 grains = 5,760/7,000 avoirdupois pound

i love too see these sort of discussions on the
.45ACP VS. 10MM VS. .40S&W

ive been a firearms dealer for alot of years, and ive owned and carried the GLOCK 20 since it was first introduced on my CCW ( and prior to that, owned and carried a bren and a delta)

i also have a GLOCK 23 (40 S&W),COLT .45 1911 on my permit.

now, if you want my personal opinion , nothing will ever replace the time proven .45 ACP . it has too much of a following, but for pure pop and drop, the 10mm is what i choose. it is used extensively for hunting large game ( and can drop a grizzley) and self defense. i personally filled one of my deer tags this year with my GLOCK 20C at 40 yards, STOCK open sights with horndy HP/XTP 155gr. the buck dropped like a stone, loosing both lungs and his heart.

the 10MM is a NASTY round, with outstanding terminal power and ballistics. while the .40 is not to far behind it, it doesnt come close in actual real life. i dont care what anyone says. the 10MM is carried by alot of guides in alaska now (mostly GLOCK 20's), and is used extensively in big game safari as a side arm ( just ask Ted Nugent). it has safely and humanely taken countless big game animals.

also, it is possible ( although i dont recomend it to anyone) to shoot the .40 S&W safely thru the GLOCK 20 as the extractor is strong enough for the cartrige to headspace on it, whereas this is not possible with most other 10MM handguns ( unless were talking about a multi-caliber conversion) as the cartrige head spaces on the case mouth of the cartridge. ive shot the .40 S&W thru my GLOCK 20 for years, and use it as a practice round as even at wholesale prices ( unless you reload, and i dont have much time to do that anymore) its much cheaper than the 10MM

ive been a fan of the 1911 for more years than id care to mention and own 13 of the buggers ( in 9MM,10MM and .45ACP) and have built more that id care to say in my time in .45 ACP, but given a choice, id personally go with the 10MM every single time.

also guys, please remeber that opinions, well, there like A**H***S, everyone has at LEAST one, and i have never ever ran across one that didnt stink ( well, maybe one, but we wont talk about her.......LOL)

by **GunRunner** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:47 pm

(oh, and as far as the guns i list goes, there actually from my personal collection, and not from stock. and as far as glocks go, i own more glocks now in my personal collection that 1911's...LOL)

by **GunRunner** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:55 pm

mr.trooper wrote: I would like to get a 10mm auto sometime. Probably a Delta Elite.

delta's are nice guns my friend, but remeber that they have been known to crack a frame here and there. if you dont mind a friendly suggestion, if this ( 10MM) is going to be for a carry/shooting piece, and you plan to run alot of rounds thru it, get the glock 20c. the recoil is along the lines of a .38 special or so, and can take THOUSANDS of rounds without a hiccup.

the big drawback that alot of people saw in the 10MM when it was first introduced is its snappy recoil. personally, i like to shoot a gun that you KNOW has went off (LOL) when you trip the sear on it. if you get a chance to shot the GLOCK 20C do so. youll love it.

ALSO, when you get around to deciding what you want to get in 10MM, dont hesitate to give me a shout and ill get you some decent competitive prices.

( that goes for anyone else here)

by **mr.trooper** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:52 pm

Grizzlies? Iv heard of 10mm being used to kill black bear in an emergency, but not Grizzle bear. Thats interesting.

Do most states require you to state what gun you will be carrying? I ask because i dont remember having to do that. I like to carry a parker .45 in an uncle Mikes Arm-pit rig, with a J-22 in my belt as a backup gun.

by **GunRunner** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:27 am

mr.trooper wrote:Grizzlies? Iv heard of 10mm being used to kill black bear in an emergency, but not Grizzle bear. Thats interesting.

Do most states require you to state what gun you will be carrying?

to be honest, i really dont know, but were required out here in Kumunist Kalifornia to state and qualify with what were going to carry.

yes, a 10MM for Griz!....hard to believe isnt it?......i didnt believe it myself at first till i actually saw the photos. a guide killed one in AK that was in the middle of chewing up one of his clients legs and killed it with one shot ( to the carberator...LOL.....)

they had a heck of a time geting it off of the clients legs to get him medical attention.

heres a site that i ran across sometime back that lists alot of animals taken with the 10MM:

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10mmhunt.htm

ive got some pix of that grzzley skinned out somewere that shows the damage the 10MM did to the thing. if i can find them, ill post them ( there not for the faint of heart thugh...LOL)

by **GunRunner** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:48 am

well, thats 2 threads that ive killed...........

looks like you passed that honor down to me eh,Mr.Trooper?

heres a picture of the forked horn i popped with my glock 20C at about 40 yards

by **Armored^Cav** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:23 am

Hello all, I am new to this forum, but I truly love my 10mm so I had to reply.

While I agree nothing will ever kill the 45, it certainly isn't because the 10mm has too much recoil to be widely accepted. I came up in the Army shooting the 45 and that was my favorite weapon at the time. I heard about the 10mm and did a little research on it and fell in love with it's characteristics. I still like the 45, but the 10mm is awesome.

What I would like to see before folks post here is for them to do a little more research before making assumptions from personal feelings. If you feel the need to comment on the 10mm, there is a hell of a lot of material out there on it. I would suggest you take most of it with a grain of salt and the rest I reccomend a little hands on.

Have a great time shooting. :beer:

by **Uncle Fudd** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:00 pm

May I weigh in for some more ideas/answers.
I think most of thte posts have merit and interesting thoughts. But I have to agree with Mr. Trooper in his first post. The main reason then and today has to do with recoil and perhaps the noise from the 10mm.
I own and operate an indoor shooting range and have taught with everything from the 22 to the 500s. The first thing that comes to my attention is that most people who purchase handguns do not take the time to shoot their guns enough to become or to stay proficient with them.
It is true with the 10mm that it was given to law enforcement and then expected with little to no training or practice for the agents to be proficient with that gun. The average agent did not like the recoil and even taming the rounds down to the power now experienced with the 40s&w they still did not like them so they dropped them completely, primarily for the 40. and thus it stands today.
With any handgun, the more you shoot, the better you become and providing you continue to practice,(shoot a lot) the more proficient you will remain.
So whether you plan to shoot a 22 or a 500, practice a lot and you will probably enjoy it and be pretty good with it in the long run.
Along with the recoil and noise, because the 10 never really gained widespread popularity, the ammo is quite expensive. If you are doing your own loading it is not as much a consequence as 40, 10 41AE etc. have several bullet weight choices for plinking or hunmting or for that matter, self defense.
Hope this will give additional insight and pardon me if I offend.
I try not to give facts as much as professional observations.
I am asked frequently "what is the best caliber for me"?
What you can afford, what you are comfortable with shooting a lot, so you will be encouraged to get out and do so more often.
If it costs too much or it makes too much noise or it is uncomfortable, you will not enjoy it and therefore not shoot it often enough if at all.
I also agree that if you are choosing a 10 for yourself, it is hard to beat the Glock. I would also have a Delta if I could find one for a decent price.
Uncle Fudd

by **ProtectionAgainstElements** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:58 pm

Hello, I am new to the pistol shooting, but I am a long time trapshooter anyways I wanted a pistol to protect me whatever nature throws at me. I'm in a bear and wolf county and we have ALOT of them and I heard about a .45 vs. 10mm. So I have read that a 10mm has more kick or recoil, well with this recoil does it compare to strength as a .45 I dont care about recoil I just want a strong automatic and I either will buy a .45 or 10mm so I was wondering if both pistols were under $500 and both top of the line for the price what would you buy a 45 or 10mm? I want a strong reliable bear stopping automatic... Also I don't reload. What shells would be cheaper to shoot 45 or 10mm? I think a .45 shells would be cheaper, because I have not heard much about 10mm's I can get a CZ 10mm for $300 or a S&W or Ruger for $500 what would you truly buy? remember I want a stronger pistol...So again what is stronger a .45 or 10mm. Please e-mail me also at: sk84darkstar@sbcglobal.net
Much appreciated :sniper:

Please Respond Soon :beer:

by **Gohon** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:47 pm

This is one of those times you are not going to be able have your cake and eat it to. Getting one of these guns is certainly possible at $500 or less but neither one is a bear stopper, let alone a reliable bear stopper. If you are going to insist that it must be a automatic then as I see it your only option is a Magnum Research Desert Eagle in 44 magnum or better yet the 50AE Eagle. The best handgun for bear defense is the S&W 500 but in automatic that leaves the Desert Eagle. These guns run about $1,000 for the Mark XII in 44 magnum and about $1,600 for the Mark XIX 50AE when new. I have seen the 44 mag for $650 used and the 50AE for $900 used. If you insist on the two guns you mentioned then in my opinion the 10mm with hand loads of a heavy solid jacket would be the best choice but since you don't hand load then don't plan on stopping any bear attack with either, especially considering that only a brain or spine shot will stop a charging bear.

by **SDHandgunner** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:44 am

Plainsman wrote: I can’t remember who asked (I think it was you) about loading the 45ACP to 1100fps with a 230 gr. There is a company that sells a ramped barrel with full chamber support for the cartridge and a 26 lb double spring conversion kit for $200. They claim the 230gr can be loaded to 1200fps with that conversion. I have been thinking about buying a ramped barrel and see what kind of velocity I can safely obtain with 24lb Wolf spring.

What Plainsman is referring to is called the .45 Super. The late Ace Hindman and Gunwirter Dean Grennel came up with tihs cartridge several years ago. There is at least one chapter dedicated to this cartridge in Grennel's "The Book of the .45".

Several years ago (about 1990 or thereabouts) I contacted Ace Hindman (owner / operator of Ace Custom .45's) about the .45 Super. At that time I alaos purchased a Conversion Kit for my S&W Model 645 (which has a ramped barrel from the factory). The .45 Super as originally conceived was to use a stronger cartridge case to make .45 ACP Cases out of (they used cut down .451 Detonics brass) and to use a Ramped Barrel with a special Recoil Spring System to load the .45 close to the pressure levels of the 10mm.

While I did not achieve the velocities reported by Hindman and Grennel (I never pushed it that far) I did enjoy a increase in performance with my handloads that pushed a 185gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point (the bullet recommended by Hindman and Grennel) to almost the same velocities a 100mm Auto can push a 180gr. Bullet.

While I never did get to harvest a Whitetail with this Gun / Load combo, I did manage to shoot several Whitetails that needed dispatching at the scenes of Vehicle / Deer Accidents. Most of these deer were examined to inspect the damage done by these experimental loads. In my opinion the .45 Loads I put together were quite devestating, and in every instance the bullet exited the Deer provided I did not hit a shoulder bone.

Now I have not shot a 100mm very much, but at the time I had my converted S&W 645 a buddy had a S&W Model 1006 in 100mm. We shot both handguns (target shooting) quite a bit side by side. The thing that was apparent to me was that no matter if I was shooting light cast bullet handloads, factory loads or my .45 Super loads the .45 had an edge in accuracy in these two handguns. I would say the shootability (recoil and recovery from that recoil, and muzzle blast) for my .45 Super Handloads was about the same as the 10mm.

What does all of this mean. Well it means that if you are a dedicated handloader and like to experiment the .45 ACP in the form of the .45 Super can do anything a 10mm can do and more. BUT the key is if you are a Handloader and willing to put in the time experimenting with loads.

On a different note I once had a Coonan Arms Model B 1911 Style .357 Magnum Semi Auto Handgun. This too was an interesting Handgun that fired Conventional .357 Magnum Ammo. However due to the closed breach design of the Semi Auto this handgun gained up to 200 FPS over a similar length revolver in .357 Magnum (ie I actually chronographed the same ammo in both types of handguns).

In the end this is kind of like a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge debate, and each individual user will have his or her own personal preferences. To put it a different way, some men likes Blondes while some like Brunettes while others like Redheads.

Larry

by **mark056** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:55 pm

An interesting discussion, indeed. Getting back to the original topic, I really think that some of the posters have hit the proverbial nail on the head: The reason the 10mm didn't take off, was due to the fact that for many people it is simply too much gun. The S&W 1076 that the FBI ordered had some mechanical problems, was a bit heavy and in the end proved not to be a very suitable general service handgun. In the end, the FBI ordered loadings for the 10mm that got a few folks thinking and the .40 S&W was born, milder loadings in a 9mm framed pistol, thus fullfilling the Cooperian dictim of a .40 caliber law enforcement weapon. The road to the .40 S&W was littered with the discarded frames of the ill fated S&W 1076, the ill starred Bren 10, the .40 G&A, the .41 A&E, the .41 Magnum, and I suppose the Colt .41 spec and the 38-40 going back to the 19th Century.

Now most of you guys (I don't think there are too many gals involved here) are what we would call back in the day "gun cranks". What y'all don't get is that most people are not. They are intimidated by a large caliber (at least 40) heavy recoiling handgun. Now whether this is a good thing or a bad thing means nothing in reality, it is fact...pure and simple. That is one major reason that the .38 Spl and the 9mm have endured for so long. They are shootable calibers by non-gun people. In long arms, the it is the major reason the military went to the 5.56 from the 7.62. If one goes back to the legendary almost now mythical days of WWII, look how many M1 carbines were produced and the rationale behind their production: to replace the "heavy hard kicking .45 ACP, and to give support troops something lighter than the "heavy" M1 Garand. The movement has always been to lighter. Now the old .45 ACP would have probably withered up and died away if it wasn't for that old facist (ya either love him or hate him, but you can't ignore him, when he sticks to the topic of guns I listen otherwise...he is a facist in my book) Jeff Cooper of Paulden, Arizona who invented almost singlehandely modern pistolcraft. Even Cooper got the boot though, IPSC got ruined by the gamesmen; they went to poofy caliber loadings and combinations and the object of the race gun was to make "major" by the letter of the law. The same deal there as in law enforcement and the military, light (as in loading) made right and guaranteed winning.

So the .45 ACP continues to hang on thanks to Cooper and a few influential gun writers and trainers and may even be revived by the U.S. Military. (I'd only bet even money on that, 'cause once the politicians and bureaucrats run with the idea, who knows what our next service pistol will be, it could easily wind up as something weighing about five pounds and chambered for the .25 ACP with a five round capacity and made in Takrit, in a move to "stimulate" the local economy to get Iraq back on its feet economically).

No doubt the 10mm is a great cartridge, and so is the .41 Magnum for that matter...but for general issue, it's just not practical which is why it has never really caught on. As far as carrying one in bear country, personally I think anyone carrying a handgun for bear protection (and I have in Alaska when I was young and dumber than I am now) is about as bubble headed as that ex-hippy from California who went up to Alaska and made friends with the "brownies" only to become their lunch one fine day.

Personally I think the .45 GAP has great potential. Once it is chambered for something other than a Glock (they are just like Lt Col Cooper, you either love 'em or you hate 'em, no middle ground) I think we will have some real whiz bang, jim-dandy handguns out there. Same ballistic performance as the hallowed .45 but in a more compact package. My dream gun ? A tricked up Browning Hi-Power in .45 GAP (a choice that I am sure will make some of ya want head for the head).

Good shooting to everyone !

Mark 056

by **wyocarp** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:05 am

As far as carrying one in bear country, personally I think anyone carrying a handgun for bear protection (and I have in Alaska when I was young and dumber than I am now) is about as bubble headed as that ex-hippy from California who went up to Alaska and made friends with the "brownies" only to become their lunch one fine day.

Mark, you made that comment but you didn't say what you would do if you were interested in bear protection. Although I disagree, I know that the .500 will stop a bear. In the right/wrong situations, nothing will work. I've seen some black bears that were coming in awfully hard that were stopped with nothing more than jumping up and down with arms stretched out.

by **wyocarp** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:10 am

In the end this is kind of like a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge debate, and each individual user will have his or her own personal preferences. To put it a different way, some men likes Blondes while some like Brunettes while others like Redheads.

Larry

By the way Larry, the Dodge is a noisy piece of junk, the new Chevy is getting closer to at least looking like a Ford, and kind of like guns, Blondes, Brunettes, and Redheads all have their own unique usefullness.

by **mark056** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:44 pm

Well, the gentleman from Wyoming asked what I would carry in Bear Country....good question ! Now I know that a .500 S&W can kill a bear, and there have been bears killed with .22 LR. But like the man said, there are simply too many variables. In some cases the flailing of arms has worked, as has beating on pans, or simply going limp and playing dead. It is not inevitable that a bear attack is going to be successful. However, I have also had too many experiences with Mr. Murphy to know that it damn well could happen and that I could well end up as somebody's lunch.

I really think that many people go into bear country with handguns and are overgunned. As I have stated before, unless you are willing to practice, practice, practice and learn to properly control a heavy caliber handgun under extreme duress, there is no point in packing a .480 Ruger or some other heavy caliber handgun, because when the chips are down, luck is the only thing that is going to prevail.

Right now, if I were to go back into bear country, and I couldn't carry a rifle for whatever reason. I'd go for a short barrelled 12 ga with slugs. Now I know somebody else said they tried that and it wasn't satisfactory, but even though I am a real handgun afficiando, shooter and collector, I never go into harm's way without anything less than a shoulder fired weapon unless I have no other choice.

Good shooting to all,

Mark

by **Gohon** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:45 pm

the Dodge is a noisy piece of junk, the new Chevy is getting closer to at least looking like a Ford,

Yeah, but at least Dodge hasn't had to have heaters installed in the tailgates like Ford so you guys hands don't get cold while pushing them home...... :lol:

by **wyocarp** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:24 pm

Gohon wrote:
the Dodge is a noisy piece of junk, the new Chevy is getting closer to at least looking like a Ford,

Yeah, but at least Dodge hasn't had to have heaters installed in the tailgates like Ford so you guys hands don't get cold while pushing them home......

Gohon. I am appauled you would suggest that. I have never had to walk or push my Ford home. I have a cell phone and I am always able to call and have it towed. By the way, I usually have hand warmers in the truck. I buy them in bulk straight from the manufacturer.

by **wyocarp** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:34 pm

mark056 wrote:Well, the gentleman from Wyoming

I really think that many people go into bear country with handguns and are overgunned. As I have stated before, unless you are willing to practice, practice, practice and learn to properly control a heavy caliber handgun under extreme duress, there is no point in packing a .480 Ruger or some other heavy caliber handgun, because when the chips are down, luck is the only thing that is going to prevail.

Right now, if I were to go back into bear country, and I couldn't carry a rifle for whatever reason. I'd go for a short barrelled 12 ga with slugs. Now I know somebody else said they tried that and it wasn't satisfactory, but even though I am a real handgun afficiando, shooter and collector, I never go into harm's way without anything less than a shoulder fired weapon unless I have no other choice.

Mark, you are certainly trying to be kind, but a "gentleman," isn't that going a bid far?

I agree with the practice thing. People don't realize how much shooting it takes to be proficient. I like what can be achieved with shotguns and slugs, but there is no way I would carry one. It does seem like a good way to sleep in grizzly country, but I would want something more than a single or double barreled version. I guess I don't consider my .500's something "less" than a shoulder fired weapon. Yes, I hunt with two of them on a double shoulder rig.

Good shooting to all,

Mark

by **douglasd** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:36 pm

mr.trooper wrote:Do most states require you to state what gun you will be carrying?

This is only a requirement in a very few states, The Peoples Republik of Kalifornia being one of them. Most, like here in Michigan, require only that YOU be licensed, not the gun.

Once you get your CPL (Concealed Pistol License, as it is referred to in Michigan), you can carry any gun (registered, of course), and as many guns, as you wish.

Doug

by **sharpshooter_boss** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:20 pm

"Hello, I am new to the pistol shooting, but I am a long time trapshooter anyways I wanted a pistol to protect me whatever nature throws at me. I'm in a bear and wolf county"

O.K., the basics. No .45 ACP is gonna stop a bear. It's wishful thinking. Maybe if you shot it in it's open mouth.

Secondly, you have to be 18 years old to carry a pistol in the woods in Wisconsin. And the barrel has to be 5.5" or more. Sorry bud

10mm vs 45 auto

10mm vs 45 auto

WhichWay?